spn fic rec

[mickeym]

We Meet Face To Face To Face, by cormallen. Sam/Dean, NC-17, D/s.

This is NOT a story that trivializes or fetishizes D/s. It's not meant to titilate. It's one brother giving the other something the other probably isn't even consciously aware that he needs. It deals with Dean's issues of needing the control John exercised over both his sons -- needing a father figure (though please don't read that as Dean needing sex with John, because that's really not at all what this story is about). cormallen writes the boys as fucked up, with huge issues that stand around and keep them company, and it comes across so raw and intense it'll take your breath away.

Snippet: Dean is pushing him. Prodding him, working him up; it means what he's doing isn't enough. Dean wants more, needs more than just kneeling on the floor and paying obeisance to Sam's spread thighs.

Comments

[zelda-zee.livejournal.com]

Awesome fic. Thanks for the rec.

[janissa11.livejournal.com]

I am SO glad you linked this. Wow.

[cormallen.livejournal.com]

Oh, wow, thank you for the rec. *adores*

[deansdemongirl.livejournal.com]

Really needs a good beta and more polish. With the bad mixing of tenses and the heavy misuse of pronouns, several crucial scenes in the story are a confusing jumble that often leaves the reader wondering about who is doing what with whom and sometimes inadvertantly creating the wrong visuals.

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

I didn't have any trouble following who was doing what, and there was no jumble for me reading it. I believe the switching tenses were done intentionally, for 'then' and 'now' purposes -- and I thought it worked really well. *shrugs* YMMV of course; that's the great thing about fanfiction, that we don't have to all like the same thing.

[deansdemongirl.livejournal.com]

I didn't say I didn't like it, so please don't mistake honest critique with disliking a story. I don't respond to fic I don't like or have no interest in. I only respond to work I think is basically a pretty good story. I just found it disappointing that such an interesting concept and something that showed a lot of potential was made confusing and jumbled by the two things I found issue with.

I said I had issues with the misuse of pronouns following nouns that made for some very intersting visuals of Sam doing some stuff to himself that I suppose was actually meant to be conveyed as being done to Dean and vice versa. And I was talking about the switching of tenses within the same paragraphs that made the story confusing and took away the kind of powerful impact the work could have had for me.

Granted, the proper use of pronouns following nouns is hard to do when writing same sex type scenes.

Also you don't use present tense even when switching between a 'then-now' type scenario. The correct thing to do is use past tense for the 'then' parts and present past tense for the 'now' parts.

Example:

Last week Sam had remembered how the whole thing began. Now he remembered why he wanted to get it over with.

You only use present tense within dialog or if the story is being narrated from someones POV.

Example; "Dean go get the salt," Sam whispered.

I really don't know where to begin with this whole thing that is happening between my brother Dean and I or how we even ended up in this situation. All I know is it had a lot to do with how our dad used to treat him when we were growing up.

My point is it just would have done the story and the interesting concept behind it more justice if the author had polished it up a bit more and did another pass through regarding tense use and placement of pronouns before putting it out there. I just hate to see a good story robbed of its fullest potential to be the best story it can be and this was basically a good story and the author is basically a good writer.

I'd love to read this story again if it had the tense and pronoun placement issue cleaned up. The story itself is very good and it deserves to be presented in the best written form possible.

Perhaps the english language is changing and perhaps I am too 'old school' in that I want the best for a story and a writer. That I am not willing to just sit back and go 'oh yeah I know what they mean'. Call me old fashioned that I want a writer to be the best they can be and not settle for anything less for themselves and their wonderfully creative work. That I want them to understand the mechanics of writing and conveying the visuals for their work. That I want a writer to have that kind of high respect for themselves and their own work that they strive to be the best. Especially good writers like the one who came up with this story.

[wendy.livejournal.com]

Perhaps you should direct these comments to the author? The person you're commenting to doesn't have anything to do with how the story was written so I'm not sure exactly why you're saying this here.

[phaballa.livejournal.com]

I haven't read the story so I can't really comment on its relative merit, however, I mostly write in present tense, so that comment is interesting to me. I'm not sure why a story would have to be written in past tense at all, even if it's not being told from first person. And tense change within sentences even is certainly possible. For example:

Jared still remembers the first time they met that day at casting, Jensen's almost shy, subdued manner and how different it was when they started the reading, the first spark of connection. It's hard to go back and think about the time when Jensen was a stranger and Jared felt like he'd never really know Jensen, because now he can't imagine his life without Jensen in it.

[deansdemongirl.livejournal.com]

"Jared still remembers the first time they met that day at casting, Jensen's almost shy, subdued manner and how different it was when they started the reading, the first spark of connection. It's hard to go back and think about the time when Jensen was a stranger and Jared felt like he'd never really know Jensen, because now he can't imagine his life without Jensen in it."

Well you do realize that this is written in past tense not present tense right. Words like 'still',was when, was, started, felt. These all create past tense. If it were truly written in present tense it would read as this:

Jared remembers the first time they meet that day at casting, Jensen's almost shy, subdued manner and how different it is when they start the reading, the first spark of connection. It's hard to go back and think about the time when Jensen is a stranger and Jared feels like he'd never really know Jensen, because now he can't imagine his life without Jensen in it.

Do you see the difference?

[phaballa.livejournal.com]

No, the main narrative is written in the present tense, and he's remembering things that happened in the past, hence the past tense bits. It would be easier to demonstrate with a longer scene. There's definitely a difference and yes, I see it, but what you wrote made no sense. What I wrote was present tense with past tense flashbacks.

[deansdemongirl.livejournal.com]

Well what you wrote first was perfect as far as tenses go. It was past tense as you used words to convey that things happened in the past because you are describing a thought process or internal narration which is very similar to dialog. You are not describing action in a scene which is when the switching of tenses is problematic.

The thing I have more of an issue with is something liked this:

Jared pulls the door open that leads to the offices of the casting director. Jared walks down the same hallway that he did the first time he was here to read for the part. Jared saw that a light was on in the office and he stepped into the doorway to see Jensen there as well.

Notice that I started in present tense but then switched to past tense which is not proper. Either you stay in one tense or the other for this kind of thing.

To remain consistant and be proper, my last part should have read:

Jared sees that a light is on in the office and he steps into the doorway to see Jensen there as well.

[cormallen.livejournal.com]

Since the story in question is a story written by me, I really would love to hear these sort of comments on my own journal, as opposed to the journal of someone who was kind enough to rec me. My beta and I both scoured my fic for inconsistencies; it is possible that we may have missed something. I would appreciate it if you pointed out where in the story you saw inconsistencies such as the one you refer to above.

[deansdemongirl.livejournal.com]

I take this to mean you are the author of the fic about the bondage?

My comments aren't about your fic other than to share a comment with the LJ owner that I had read the rec and found it to be something that was a basically good story but had things I found disappointing. I was responding to the topic of the rec and was sharing my comments with her about something she had started a topic about. I felt that I was explaining why I had an issue and what bothers me in fanfic in general but that I just wanted to clarify that I liked the story concept (I have one written that is very similar to it in concept which is currently over 120 pages long and still going) but just had issues with things that I feel makes any story in general lose impact. You are a creative writer, you took the idea in a direction that is interesting to me and different than my own approach to this subject in fanfic. I really liked what you were conveying.

All of my comments have been about the topic of writing fanfic in general, not about your story in specific (though maybe in hindsight they didn't really appear that way). I avoided using any content from your story as examples because of this.

I would be glad to do an email exchange with you and go over the things in the story I had issues with if you are interested.

I can with your permission copy the story off of your LJ and then go over it and email the things to you rather than go piecemeal throught it. That way we can discuss comments that are specifically about your story with each other.

[cormallen.livejournal.com]

My comments aren't about your fic [...]
I was responding to the topic of the rec and was sharing my comments with her about something she had started a topic about.

As the "topic of the rec" is the fic I happened to write, I am not sure I follow what you're trying to say above. As I said, you are welcome to post your feedback, concerns, questions, opinions, point out inconsistencies, et cetera over on my journal, where the fic in question is posted. If you would rather e-mail me than comment, all the relevant info is also very easy to find on my journal. I am not going to clutter mickeym's journal or inbox and abuse her hospitality anymore; I am sure she'll be glad to see this migrate elsewhere.

[deansdemongirl.livejournal.com]

She recced the fic. I said I read it but found it to be jumbled and confusing. That's all I was going to say.

She commented back making a statement that implied my comments meant I didn't like the story, which is not what I said at all.

I responded to clarify to her about her comment and to explain why I felt the way I did and why it didn't mean I didn't like the story. I thought we were discussing our comments to each other which involved the topic she posted about.

I went off into a discussion about the mechanics of writing fanfic in general.

If the LJ owner no longer wants a discussion among fans about writing fanfic in general then I respect that. I had no idea that this discussion was being an abuse of hospitality to her. I thought it was a civil discussion among fans who like to write fanfic. I had thought that by reccing fic in her LJ she was also open to discussion of people's views and opinions about writing and reading fanfic.

If not, I apologize for commenting here to her and other fans in response to comments or topic.

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

Man, I don't even know where to start, here.

The comment you left me may have been intended to open up a discussion about people's views and opinions about writing/reading fanfic, but it didn't come across that way. It felt, to me, as though you were being critical of the story, and of my reccing it.

I've never had anyone come in to my journal on a rec post and do that, and I wasn't sure how to respond (and I'm still not sure how to respond, honestly). I'm certainly open to discussion about writing styles, writing in general, fanfiction, and pretty much any combination thereof. But not in a post where I've recommended a specific story. If you read the story and didn't care for it, it would have been more logical, in my opinion, to give the author the comments, saying maybe "hey, got here by way of _______'s rec, and a few things struck me as odd/awkward/whatever".

When I rec a story I always go back and read the comments to that story, because I'm curious to see if people took my rec, if they left feedback, what they thought and so on. Discussion opens up that way. But concrit -- particularly unsolicited -- is such a dicey thing. I've been in fandoms where "public concrit" was the phrase used to tear into a story or (as often happened) an author. I'm NOT saying that's what you were doing. You were very civil, and I appreciate that. But past experiences have left me wary, y'know?

As for whether or not you liked the story...you didn't specifically say "I didn't like this", no. But your comment had nothing positive to say about the story, and that combined with the general abrupt tone/feel left me thinking that's what you were implying -- and left me confused as to why you were telling ME, since I'm not the author.

Anyway, thanks again for keeping this civil. I appreciate it.

[rejeneration.livejournal.com]

Hello literary review! Thank GOD we're finally getting down to the nitty-gritty - the real BRASS TACKS - of all these problems plaguing today’s fan fiction. -sigh- If... If only every reader could be so conscientious!

[glendaglamazon.livejournal.com]

Why on earth are you posting all of this to someone who recced the story? mickeym liked the story and thought others might enjoy it, too. She had nothing to do with the writing of it, so if you have an issue with the writing, you should address the author. Your "honest critique" is fine, if it's made in response to the proper person. Here? It looks a little snotty and rude.

[deansdemongirl.livejournal.com]

Why did I post here? The LJ owner put out a fic rec and I responded to her regarding that fic rec. She commented back to me. I assumed it was ok to respond to her in her own journal about my comments to her regarding a recced fic. I didn't think it would be rude to discuss this issue of tense use and the mechanics of writing with her since she had opened discussion with me by responding to my comment about the subject.

I figured since she responded to my thoughts about tense use and why it didn't work well in a story for me here in her own LJ it was ok to discuss the concepts of the use of tenses and pronouns in writing fanfic which was why I used examples that were not part of the story recced but were made up to illustrate a point within the discussion.

This LJ stuff is confusing sometimes LOL!

[glendaglamazon.livejournal.com]

You appear to be new to LJ fandom and the concept of fic reccing, but mickeym was being polite in her response to you. She was not attempting to encourage you in your use of her journal to expound on your Theories of Good Writing. Basically, by coming into this post and picking apart the story that was recced, it seemed that you were criticizing mickeym's taste or ability to recognize good writing. If you have something to say about a story, it is considered best to address those comments to the author of said story, as the author herself has expressed her desire to have you do.

It's also generally considered polite to introduce yourself to someone if you're new to their journal and want to get into some sort of heavy discussion with them about something.

Also, concrit is a dicey issue, and most people broach it gingerly--if at all--if it hasn't been explicitly welcomed by, you know, the author, not people not connected in any way to a story other than enjoying it and offering it up as something others might enjoy.

[deansdemongirl.livejournal.com]

"You appear to be new to LJ fandom and the concept of fic reccing, but mickeym was being polite in her response to you. She was not attempting to encourage you in your use of her journal to expound on your Theories of Good Writing."

So it's not a form of communication and talking to people and sharing thoughts. Ok.

"Basically, by coming into this post and picking apart the story that was recced, it seemed that you were criticizing mickeym's taste or ability to recognize good writing."

Why on earth would anyone take such comments about a topic as a personal statement about them or their liking/disliking something? That makes no sense to me whatsoever. I would not have ever assumed that the LJ owner's personal opinion of themselves or their likes would be so wrapped up in or rely on what other people have as an opinion.

That's very odd to me. And certainly if my comments were taken as such then surely I apologize for that. I would not want her to feel that way. I appreciated that she shared the story and recommended it.

Ok well thanks for explaining that to me. Next time I will make sure to be more in tune with the nature of things.

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

So it's not a form of communication and talking to people and sharing thoughts. Ok.

It can be. I like to have discussions -- though often I get bogged down with Other Life Stuff just about the time the discussions get interesting.

The biggest thing here is: I don't know you. I had no idea why you came into a rec post to give what amounted to negative feedback.

I kind of understand now, I think, though it still confuses me. Mostly, I suppose, because I have no frame of reference here. I don't have any previous experience with that happening. Granted, my corner of fandom isn't huge, but I've been in fandom in one form or another for coming on 12 years now, with almost six of those on LJ, and none of those years yielded anything like a crit of a rec.

I would not have ever assumed that the LJ owner's personal opinion of themselves or their likes would be so wrapped up in or rely on what other people have as an opinion.

Please *please* don't assume anything of the sort. Two or three years ago? I would have totally assumed exactly that: your opinion directly represented what you thought of my rec (or story or idea or whatever). Would it be true? No. Do I feel that way now? No. But at that time I wasn't emotionally healthy enough to separate ME from...everything else. And there are a lot of folks spread across fandom who don't have very good (if any) shields or armor in place against things like that.

I'm certainly not saying coddle everyone, or walk (type) on tip-toe. Just...don't make blanket assumptions, please, about how your opinions influence others'.

[deansdemongirl.livejournal.com]

"I'm certainly not saying coddle everyone, or walk (type) on tip-toe. Just...don't make blanket assumptions, please, about how your opinions influence others'."

Ok let's go back a bit. This was not my assumption. I was responding to someone who seemed to be SUGGESTING to me that you felt my comments were a personal attack against you and your likes/dislikes.

That kinda confused me because you didn't seem like the kind of person anyone would make that kind of assumption about and I certainly didn't make that kind of assumption about you or else I wouldn't have posted anything at all to your LJ. It just confused me. However I figured this person knows you better than I do and so I was suddenly concerned that I had made you feel like there was some sort of personal attack going on and wanted to convey apologies if that were the case.

I started out on the net back in the early 90's with newsgroups and other limited types of discussion lists. Heck I remember when Yahoo used to be called Onelist. The internet wasn't so segmented back then and we were all sort of thrown together. When people posted a recommendation for something, we discussed it there and it was normal to discuss views and opinions with the person who made the recommendation.

Things are changing no doubt about it and we are becoming compartmentalized and segmented within our fandoms more and more every day it seems.

Ya know I kinda feel like the person who is still using an electric typwriter when everyone else is using a computer. Or maybe I just feel old LOL!

Anyway, thanks for explaining and thanks for opening up about something so personal to let me know a bit more about you. A few years ago I was in the same boat, took a lot of things way too personally. Now I'm trying to do better. Still kinda working on the be more tactful part as well.

M

[rahaeli.livejournal.com]

Hm. I'll be sure to tell, oh, Brent Easton Ellis, Cory Doctorow, Margaret Atwood, Neil Gaiman, Neal Stephenson, etc, that their award-winning novels were in the "wrong" tense.

[darkseaglass.livejournal.com]

You only use present tense within dialog or if the story is being narrated from someones POV.

This is not true. Charles Dickens' Bleak House, for instance, is written with half the narrative in 1st person past, the other half in 3rd person present. Coetzee's Disgrace is also 3rd person present.

There really are no hard and fast rules here, I choose tense and POV based on situation, motive, and desired effect. I don't think I'm alone in this, as I've heard the same from others.

[deansdemongirl.livejournal.com]

This is not true. Charles Dickens' Bleak House, for instance, is written with half the narrative in 1st person past, the other half in 3rd person present. Coetzee's Disgrace is also 3rd person present.

And they remained consistant when a specific tense was being used right. They didn't write a sentence or paragraph in one tense and half in another right? Also as you say they are doing narrative or writing from a constant specific point of view. narration is bascally internal dialog or is a story being told from the character's point of view and they are doing the describing or telling of the story rather than the author telling the story about the characters.

Nothing looked liked this did it?.

Dean pulled the car to a stop and he gets out. Sam gathered up his computer and steps out of the car as well. Both brothers looked around and they see that people are acting strange. They go to the nearest person and asked them what is happening.

That is the kind of constant switch of tense within a sentance or paragraph that bothers me. It doesn't read right. Especially when it is the author telling us a story about the characters and things that happened to them in the story.

[darkseaglass.livejournal.com]

It looks like I misunderstood you. When you said "You only use present tense within dialog or if the story is being narrated from someones POV," I read that as a blanket statement on your part re: how an Author should approach all writing.

If you were saying that this author 'should only use present tense within dialog or if the story is being narrated from someone's POV' then I misunderstood you.