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mickeymSo far, I'm less than impressed with 2010. I'm having to fight the overwhelming urge to just crawl into bed, pull the covers up over my head, and stay there. I blame the cold and the fact that it's been cloudy and/or snowing for the past three days. (I think we hit 20F today. Maybe. Our low tonight is supposed to be 7. I haven't been able to breathe well in about four days, because of the extreme cold and the dry air in the house, from the heater running constantly.)
Doug wasn't able to send the full amount of child-support. He was laid off for the last couple weeks of December, so I was half-expecting it, but he waited until he was sending the payment to tell me for sure. Doing better at communication, still have a little ways to go. Fortunately I can pay what needs to be paid right now, and just use the difference (which he assures me will come next Friday) when it gets here for groceries next week. But gah.
I have friends who are having some really rough spots in their lives right now, and I wish so much that I could just wave a wand and fix things for them. :( I hate that it's not even a possibility.
The graphic art that![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
counteragent has done really kind of hit home for me. Not so much in the sense of I hide who I am NOW (because we all know I don't, really), or what I do...but. (And for those of you who've known me a while, you've probably heard this story before. So I apologize you're hearing it again.) For those of you who haven't known me long, here's my tale of Family-Finds-Out.
To this day, and we're talking 12 years now, I still don't know exactly how my mom discovered I was reading/writing slash. My best guess is that when she would come to stay with us, she slept in our third bedroom which was combination computer room/guest room. I always made sure to clean things up in there, but I suspect I left a print-out of a story somewhere that she likely found and then read.
Christmas Day, 1997, I put the baby down for a nap (3yr old Matthew! hee), and Doug was probably napping as well, I don't know. I was out in the living room paging through a bookverabell gave me, a writer's "how to" on police procedures. Mom comes out, sees it and me, and without giving me any warning as to what was coming, launches into a diatribe on my computer usage, my hobbies, "THAT STUFF" that I read/write, how it's going to make me a bad mother, and what am I going to do if Matthew finds it?
An hour she ranted, and cajoled, and guilted me, telling me it was unhealthy, the amount of time I spent online and all for TV shows, and that sick stuff I was reading and what was I thinking?
She called me negligent, with regards to parenting, and said she couldn't ever see anything good coming out of all of this.
That did some major damage to our relationship; probably more than she ever realized. That was when I first really glommed on to the fact that my mother will judge me based on what she thinks is good/useful/right, and I'm going to come out wanting, every time.
We did eventually get to the point where my "hobbies" were less the elephant in the room and closer to something that could be (sort of) joked about. Or at least inquired after. A few years after that incident, mom made some offhand (or so it seemed, she acted like she was trying to be casual) comment about if I was still writing "that porn stuff". I responded that yes, I was still writing erotica, and she nodded and said okay, and that was that. I don't apologize for it, I never will, and I think far from making me negligent (I wonder sometimes if she even remembers saying that to me) my involvement in fandom has actually helped me be a better parent, in some ways. Would I have been able to be as open and understanding of all the 1093841204891 sex-related questions Matthew's had for me, without it? I honestly don't know. I know because of fandom and fannish interaction I became more comfortable with sex, sexuality, gender, and related topics.
Being fannish has allowed me to share things with Matthew I wouldn't likely have, otherwise. My mom's never been a big fan of anything but baseball, so we never had a 'fan' connection. But Matthew and I, we watch all kinds of television/movies together, and we have fun quoting random movies and dialogue bits to each other. We enjoy "spotting the actor", or comparing one character to another. He's able to fully enjoy/engage in things he finds fun (wrestling, video games, characters in a show) without worrying that I'm going to judge him for it -- because he knows I do it, too. Unlike my mom rolling her eyes at me when I hung posters on my wall as a teenager, or drooled over Adam Ant's latest record/photoshoot, or fussed because I wanted to wait in line for concert tickets... I won't do that. I encourage posters, and magazines (or checking on things online), and if we had the money, I would take Matthew to wrestling, or whatever. (I'm actually trying to imagine telling my mom that I've explained slash to Matthew, and how he jokes with me about the Wincest, and all I can picture is her head exploding. It's kind of entertaining, actually.)
I know this wouldn't work for everyone who has to be covert about their fannish activities. There are many reasons why people don't tell others, and I'm never going to say "oh, you HAVE to stop hiding, you need to tell people". My life isn't their lives, and what works for me isn't necessarily going to for someone else, and so on. And sometimes...things need to be kept close, kept secret, for reasons of employment or family relationships, or friendships, whatever. Not everyone understands or is going to understand, and having fannish activities exposed could potentially be detrimental to the individuals involved.
I did like the graphic art (I don't feel like I can call it a comic, because I always think of comics as funny things, and that didn't really strike me as funny), even as it hit kind of close to home for me (and probably even closer, for a lot of people).
Now I suppose I should go fold laundry, or something. 7:13 is too early to go back to bed, isn't it? *sigh*
ETA: I need to clarify that what I said above? Is for ME. I don't think it's cowardly, or bad, or anything, if you keep your fannish life to yourself; if you feel you can't/shouldn't share it, that's definitely your individual call. I really hope no one would ever think I would call them a coward for keeping something potentially damaging (unfortunately) to themselves. *hugs flist*
Doug wasn't able to send the full amount of child-support. He was laid off for the last couple weeks of December, so I was half-expecting it, but he waited until he was sending the payment to tell me for sure. Doing better at communication, still have a little ways to go. Fortunately I can pay what needs to be paid right now, and just use the difference (which he assures me will come next Friday) when it gets here for groceries next week. But gah.
I have friends who are having some really rough spots in their lives right now, and I wish so much that I could just wave a wand and fix things for them. :( I hate that it's not even a possibility.
The graphic art that
counteragent has done really kind of hit home for me. Not so much in the sense of I hide who I am NOW (because we all know I don't, really), or what I do...but. (And for those of you who've known me a while, you've probably heard this story before. So I apologize you're hearing it again.) For those of you who haven't known me long, here's my tale of Family-Finds-Out.To this day, and we're talking 12 years now, I still don't know exactly how my mom discovered I was reading/writing slash. My best guess is that when she would come to stay with us, she slept in our third bedroom which was combination computer room/guest room. I always made sure to clean things up in there, but I suspect I left a print-out of a story somewhere that she likely found and then read.
Christmas Day, 1997, I put the baby down for a nap (3yr old Matthew! hee), and Doug was probably napping as well, I don't know. I was out in the living room paging through a book
verabell gave me, a writer's "how to" on police procedures. Mom comes out, sees it and me, and without giving me any warning as to what was coming, launches into a diatribe on my computer usage, my hobbies, "THAT STUFF" that I read/write, how it's going to make me a bad mother, and what am I going to do if Matthew finds it?An hour she ranted, and cajoled, and guilted me, telling me it was unhealthy, the amount of time I spent online and all for TV shows, and that sick stuff I was reading and what was I thinking?
She called me negligent, with regards to parenting, and said she couldn't ever see anything good coming out of all of this.
That did some major damage to our relationship; probably more than she ever realized. That was when I first really glommed on to the fact that my mother will judge me based on what she thinks is good/useful/right, and I'm going to come out wanting, every time.
We did eventually get to the point where my "hobbies" were less the elephant in the room and closer to something that could be (sort of) joked about. Or at least inquired after. A few years after that incident, mom made some offhand (or so it seemed, she acted like she was trying to be casual) comment about if I was still writing "that porn stuff". I responded that yes, I was still writing erotica, and she nodded and said okay, and that was that. I don't apologize for it, I never will, and I think far from making me negligent (I wonder sometimes if she even remembers saying that to me) my involvement in fandom has actually helped me be a better parent, in some ways. Would I have been able to be as open and understanding of all the 1093841204891 sex-related questions Matthew's had for me, without it? I honestly don't know. I know because of fandom and fannish interaction I became more comfortable with sex, sexuality, gender, and related topics.
Being fannish has allowed me to share things with Matthew I wouldn't likely have, otherwise. My mom's never been a big fan of anything but baseball, so we never had a 'fan' connection. But Matthew and I, we watch all kinds of television/movies together, and we have fun quoting random movies and dialogue bits to each other. We enjoy "spotting the actor", or comparing one character to another. He's able to fully enjoy/engage in things he finds fun (wrestling, video games, characters in a show) without worrying that I'm going to judge him for it -- because he knows I do it, too. Unlike my mom rolling her eyes at me when I hung posters on my wall as a teenager, or drooled over Adam Ant's latest record/photoshoot, or fussed because I wanted to wait in line for concert tickets... I won't do that. I encourage posters, and magazines (or checking on things online), and if we had the money, I would take Matthew to wrestling, or whatever. (I'm actually trying to imagine telling my mom that I've explained slash to Matthew, and how he jokes with me about the Wincest, and all I can picture is her head exploding. It's kind of entertaining, actually.)
I know this wouldn't work for everyone who has to be covert about their fannish activities. There are many reasons why people don't tell others, and I'm never going to say "oh, you HAVE to stop hiding, you need to tell people". My life isn't their lives, and what works for me isn't necessarily going to for someone else, and so on. And sometimes...things need to be kept close, kept secret, for reasons of employment or family relationships, or friendships, whatever. Not everyone understands or is going to understand, and having fannish activities exposed could potentially be detrimental to the individuals involved.
I did like the graphic art (I don't feel like I can call it a comic, because I always think of comics as funny things, and that didn't really strike me as funny), even as it hit kind of close to home for me (and probably even closer, for a lot of people).
Now I suppose I should go fold laundry, or something. 7:13 is too early to go back to bed, isn't it? *sigh*
ETA: I need to clarify that what I said above? Is for ME. I don't think it's cowardly, or bad, or anything, if you keep your fannish life to yourself; if you feel you can't/shouldn't share it, that's definitely your individual call. I really hope no one would ever think I would call them a coward for keeping something potentially damaging (unfortunately) to themselves. *hugs flist*
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2010-01-10 12:24 am (UTC)Thank you for sharing your own story. I know her art hit me hard, and I can't imagine how much it resonates for people that have actually experienced the shaming reactions as a result of their self-time seeking online.
♥
no subject
Date: 2010-01-10 12:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-01-10 12:34 am (UTC)I have gotten flak for my slash writing before, though. I had one bf, three years ago now, that used to tell me how I wasn't a "real writer" and that I was "wasting my talent" and all other kinds of baseless things because I really enjoyed writing solely fic then. The hurtful things people say about what they have little grasp of is mind-boggling.
You can chat with me on AIM, if you're feeling bored. :D *hugs*
EDIT: can you also tell me about that "how to" book? It is relevant to my interests right now.
no subject
Date: 2010-01-10 12:41 am (UTC)That pretty much ended that conversation.
I'm sorry your mom reacted so badly. *hugs* I'm just happy that it didn't stop you from enjoying the things you want to enjoy and that you realized a child can only benefit from having a parent who's honest about who they are.
no subject
Date: 2010-01-10 12:59 am (UTC)I didn't realize the significance of it at the time that I saw it on the show, not thinking of how other people have to hide that part of themselves. My husband knows and isn't too excited about it, but I haven't written any Wincest in close to a year because season 4 broke my Wincest and I couldn't get it back.
At the same time my Wincest broke I started writing in a new journal original erotica that has a heavy BDSM component. My husband would react exactly like your mom and the husband in the art/comic if he knew what I was really doing. I'm hiding behind Wincest because I know he doesn't want to read any more of what I have written in that genre. If he knew what I was really doing we'd definitely have issues and we'd both be hiring attorneys.
no subject
Date: 2010-01-10 02:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-01-10 02:54 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-01-10 03:59 am (UTC)THIS! I discuss with friends how writing let's you explore your own issues and idea. I write a lot of underage slash primarily becasue I'm genuinely interested in the realities of teen sexuality and hope to have real discussions with my son when he gets to be that age, that are not shaming or judgmental. I think that this is a valuable tool in my parenting manual.
no subject
Date: 2010-01-10 05:58 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-01-10 06:04 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-01-10 06:34 am (UTC)I wouldn't say they're "more" the issue at stake here- (That sentiment is flawed, never mind. My personal issues aren't more important than any overarching problem with society as a whole. I really hope the initial statement didn't read as saying that. :/ ) - I do agree that they are matters that certainly need to be addressed.(I will say, in response to the dubious "Really?" you posed...Yes, really. I think it's great that in your community, the existence of media fandom isn't a secret. That's awesome, seriously! But my community is insular, and the existence of media fandom is very close to a secret, even in "these days". If it was just a fandom of platonic friendships and no angst and no conflict or controversy, the violation of privacy wouldn't be so much of an issue to me. There's little potential for negative and shaming reactions where there's nothing strange or taboo to fear. My fandom activities in SPN span a good deal of issues that would provoke intense negative reactions from my community, from my loved ones. It's not something I'm ashamed of, but it's not something I feel the need to push in their faces. I won't say SPN completely took that choice out of my hands, but it skirted that line a bit. Enough to make me uncomfortable. That's where my reaction is coming from. As with anything, YMMV. *shrugs*)
I AM interested in your further thoughts on this, though, and I'd definitely appreciate any expansion from you on the topic. :)
no subject
Date: 2010-01-10 06:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-01-10 07:06 am (UTC)I do empathize with your situation with your mother; I learned early to censor every conversation with my own, and still wandered onto minefields with some frequency. My family, friends, and acquaintances are widely scattered across the spectrum of awareness, and of notions of personal responsibility and rectitude. As you know, some of the more...sheltered of them are on, or know about and have access to Live Journal.
I have spent a lifetime being circumspect, except with a few trusted souls. I've given it a lot of thought, and I honestly don't believe it's cowardice on my part as much as it is an inability on theirs to ever understand. And if I want to retain any sort of relationship with people I do love in many ways, they can't ever know certain things about me. I don't expect that to change.
no subject
Date: 2010-01-10 07:10 am (UTC)I apologize if I started a discussion with you that I couldn't finish. That wasn't my intent (since my initial comment was to
For the record, my initial comment to
no subject
Date: 2010-01-10 07:17 am (UTC)Hi, I'm a random stranger, but can I just say a fervent, heart-felt "YES. THIS." to what you've written in these sentences? It's not cowardice or shame keeping my activities from most of the people I care about. It's wanting to keep those relationships intact. It's not, after all, something that concerns them, and if one doesn't feel the need to bring them into that part of one's life...That's not being scared or ashamed, that's exercising judgment on how best to balance and respect very differing worldviews with those you love. ♥
no subject
Date: 2010-01-10 07:45 am (UTC)And if I want to retain any sort of relationship with people I do love in many ways, they can't ever know certain things about me. I don't expect that to change.
Unfortunately, yes. :(
no subject
Date: 2010-01-10 07:55 am (UTC)Friends over the years...I've been careful to approach the subject slowly, sometimes backing away, sometimes not. Depended on the person.
While I thought the whole thing with Becky-the-fangirl was amusing (mostly), I was kind of shocked that they actually went there. The first glimpse of it, in MATEOTB, with Sam saying, "..as in Sam-slash-Dean. Together.", that was amusing, too. Because really? Probably pretty accurate reaction, whatever we'd like to think. But that was far enough. I've been in slash fandom long enough that I remember when it wasn't in magazine articles and online blogs, and WRITTEN INTO STORYLINES, and I miss those days. While it's (sort of) nice that it's not a dirty little secret, as much, as it once was, it also seriously threatens the people who do feel the need to keep things covert. If it's right there in your face, it's a lot harder to ignore or explain away.
:)
no subject
Date: 2010-01-10 07:57 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-01-10 08:02 am (UTC)People who don't understand can be so cruel. How is it wasting talent (for the record? I've heard that one, too), if you're enjoying what you're doing, if you're improving, and if others enjoy it, too? Yeesh.
Thanks for the chat invite, but I wasn't really fit to be around people. I hid up here in my room and watched old episodes of WWE's Smackdown. Heh.
The book is part of the "The HowDunit Series". It's "Police Procedural: A writer's guide to the police and how they work", author is Russell Bintliff. I also have "Body Trauma" and "Scene of the Crime" (same series). I don't know how much the text might've changed over the last 12 years, though. I imagine at least some of the info is outdated, but Amazon.com or Barnes&Noble would carry the updated copies.
no subject
Date: 2010-01-10 08:06 am (UTC)It doesn't mean I'm going to go out and shout to the world that I was a part of it, but I won't ever deny that it's helped shaped me, and it's helped me become a better, more understanding and more accepting person. It's helped to educate me and teach me about the world, and I will never, ever believe anyone who says that it's harmful to me as a person.
I just saw the comic, and - thank you so much for the link. SPN's constant poking and prodding of fangirl and fandom life is a lot of what turned me off the show - the fact that people who knew I was involved in the online community would put two and two together and judge me for it. If they saw it and understood how deep fandom's reaches are beyond just fanfiction and slash, then I wouldn't mind, but the fact that they're judging without knowing how much I've grown as a person as a result? Yeah, that hurts. And it hurts that a show would out me like that.
no subject
Date: 2010-01-10 08:10 am (UTC)I've never given anyone in my family my LJ name, though I talk about LJ a lot. I've also never told them the name of my website. When I was going through my divorce I had a brief moment of panic (which is really funny, looking back, because I doubt Doug would've ever even thought to give me any grief on this) and went through and removed my name from everywhere I could. If you search me on Google, it still returns some of my stories and places where my name is linked on rec pages... but there are also enough Kim Gaspers that AREN'T me that come up, that I don't sweat it any more.
I'm just happy that it didn't stop you from enjoying the things you want to enjoy and that you realized a child can only benefit from having a parent who's honest about who they are.
Thanks :) Fandom is my greatest pleasure/source of escapism in my life, and I'm glad I didn't allow someone else's judging to take that away from me. And yeah, I think Matthew's benefited from all this :) *hugs back*
no subject
Date: 2010-01-10 08:55 am (UTC)Absolutely.
No, it wasn't anything you said or implied--it's just a gut-check I do whenever I'm reluctant about things. "Are there real reasons for hesitation? Am I punking out? Or is this a choice not only about me, but about people I care for?"
I should get out of my head more. (This is my wry grin)
no subject
Date: 2010-01-10 12:25 pm (UTC)Yeah, I said the same thing. He was a wannabe writer and tried to pass judgment on me, basically. I say wannabe writer because he had idea and tried to write them, but had no eye for aesthetics, style or grammar. When I tried to help him and encourage him to read more in order to write better, he just would fling how I'm not even writing original stories anyway in my face.
Ah, wrestling. Never could get into it. @_@ Thank you for telling me about that book, I'll have to try and pick it up this week.
no subject
Date: 2010-01-10 03:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-01-10 03:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-01-10 05:49 pm (UTC)At the end of the day, we generally go to our favorite shows to escape and forget and to gain enjoyment from something that DOESN'T resemble our real lives, where the characters do things that we'll never do. Bringing in the fandom aspect has ensured that there will always be that level of awkwardness or discomfort for some of SPN's viewers in episodes that include Becky or the fandom connection. I acutely remember my research for my dissertation and one of my questions regarded how many people felt like they needed to hide their fannish activity from friends or family, and there were SO MANY who empathized with that need, for SO MANY reasons, from job security to being judged as sick to being judged as unfit parents or negligent spouses.
Obviously, it's not Kripke's responsibility to do a background check on his viewers and to gauge how many people might be negatively impacted by his attempts at humor, and at the end of the day, if we were that upset by the fandom inclusion, we could stop watching - I'm aware of viewer responsibility. But I still find it irresponsible of show to have brought in those unecessary aspects just because they feel inextricably linked to their fanbase - there's a reason why no other shows acknowledge their fans to the extent that SPN does, after all. It's a very tricky situation all around. :/
In non-TL;DR summation, I AGREE.
Would I have been able to be as open and understanding of all the 1093841204891 sex-related questions Matthew's had for me, without it? I honestly don't know. I know because of fandom and fannish interaction I became more comfortable with sex, sexuality, gender, and related topics.
Such an interesting point, and so true - fandom has such an impact on so many aspects of who we are and how we see the world that it's impossible to ignore just how different many of us would be without its influence.
I remember my first ever encounter with incest (it was actually in the WWE fandom, funnily enough, back when it was still the WWF) and how disgusted and appalled I was by it, wondering who would be sick enough to write something about two brothers having sex - oh, the irony! Needless to say, although I took the circuitous route to incest (and slash) through het dabblings in about three other fandoms first, I can recognize in hindsight that when I was younger, I was homophobic in my ignorance, and would've been far quicker to judge anyone based on their sexual practices or attractions. Not all of my enlightenment was due to fandom, of course - it was around the time I started getting more into fanfic writing that I first met my two gay BFFs, so obviously my misconceptions had to change then too, but it's definitely interesting to look back on my own history and realize just how much fandom has shaped my personality and my ability to be accepting, encouraging and actively interested in alternative lifestyles and sexual experiences.
no subject
Date: 2010-01-11 10:25 pm (UTC)I'm so sorry you went through that with your Mom. That comic is quite powerful on a lot of levels, thank you for the link!
(12 years? How time flies!)
no subject
Date: 2010-01-11 11:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-01-12 12:57 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-01-12 01:42 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-01-12 04:16 am (UTC)2nd mention is in S5, ep1, when Chuck (who is the one writing the books, he receives "visions", and is a prophet of the lord, btw) needs to get a message to Sam and Dean but can't leave b/c the angels are watching him...he contacts "Becky". When we first see Becky, she's sitting at her computer, speaking outloud as she types, "...caressed ___'s clavicle." "It's wrong." "Then I don't ever want to be right," said _____." (I can't remember who said/did what, hence the blanks. But the important thing here is that the show SHOWED us, ONSCREEN, outloud, a fangirl writing Wincest.)
3rd mention was basically an entire episode, also S5, in which Becky "borrows" Chuck's phone and sends a text to Sam saying "trouble, need you here, hurry" (basically)... and when they show up, it's to a "Supernatural Fan Convention".
I thought the first mention was funny, albeit kind of embarrassing in that don't-show-your-underwear-in-public sort of way. I thought the 2nd time was really uncomfortable, and the 3rd, while I appreciated the episode as humor, was really over the line and unnecessary.
The graphic art
no subject
Date: 2010-01-12 04:59 am (UTC)but to me it also seems inevitable given the direction some folks have taken fandom. the 80s had convention fandom being laughed at on tv as people who needed to get a life (shatner on snl), the 90s some fandom went on line and alot more ppl found fandom there for the first time, the early oughts there were a lot of kerfuffles about having things like potter erotic fic where kids could stumble across them (publicising slash and het erotic fanfic all over the place as groups argued back and forth), the later oughts gave us the parts of fandom that want to make fanfic respectable and in the public eye and argue for making it all legal as well as the fans who give slash fic to actors/writers/producers -- and now a show shows parts of fandom that a lot of fandom would rather it hadn't shown.
(and this? is one of the reasons why i've been in the camp against making fanfic public and "acceptable" -- i've seen too many ppl upset or hurt when stuff they write comes back to bite them. making things public can have a lot of repercussions, and media exposure is definitely one of them.)
eta: i just read the comic, and then i read (some of) the comments, and i'm left with a lot of bewilderment that people seem angry at _the writer of the show_ for "outing them"* when i was angry at the husband in the comic for being such an enormous ass...
and sad for how many commenters felt the outcome of the comic was realistic, gah. i can't imagine being with apartner i couldn't trust with my secrets!
* when did outing become about showing activity x with fake ppl on tv instead of being about exposing secrets of real people?
Here from metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-12 10:15 pm (UTC)This, this, this, this a MILLION times this. Would he put up with it for a second if she tried to play Sexual Fantasy Police on him? So why should she put up with it?! (OK, I could understand if she were the kind of hypocrite who went off on him about girlie mags while enjoying her slash, but the comic gives no indication of that.)
SO's and spouses don't need to understand or share every interest, but they sure as hell need to respect each other's private psychic space.
The existence of slash fandom is not a secret. It's not Fight Club. Granted, it's uncomfortable to have "the abyss looking back into us," but I don't think it's off-limits for a show writer. Tasteless, arguably, but hardly unethical.
Re: Here from metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-13 01:09 am (UTC)adn that so many women (i am assUming here) are saying it's realistic. gah! it's realistic abusive, controlling behaviour.. that's one of the classic signs, to cut one's partner off from hir support network so sie's isolated and can't get help.
re the writing -- i can't really see that it's any more tasteless than a lot of other hobbies/practices/topics/etc that can be uncomfortable to see on tv (if one is involved in them in r/l but keeps that involvement hidden from most people in one's life), especially in the realm of sexual expression.
Re: Here from metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-13 04:16 am (UTC)Re: Here from metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-13 04:19 am (UTC)Re: Here from metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-13 06:53 am (UTC)If this couple went to the average marriage counselor, do you think that counselor would side with the wife, here? Because I have my doubts, especially depending on the nature of the community the couple lived in. Unless the counselor was in fandom hirself, I'm thinking they might have some trouble processing "I write erotica about two attractive boys on a TV horror show having an incestuous gay relationship" as something that needed to be respected. And it only gets exponentially worse if you start thinking, okay, what if they live in a small town? What if their community and/or is highly religious? What if the fangirl has a job that makes people in the community feel like they have a right to know her private business - e.g. elementary school teacher?
Plus, you know, maybe there's a chicken-and-egg thing going here, because: what if the fangirl has only recently gotten into fandom, but the relationship is longstanding? Which do you prioritize?
I mean, it would be great if we lived in a world where women were encouraged to value their self-expression and connections with friends as much as being a wife/girlfriend and/or having kids. I'm just not sure that world is here yet.
Re: Here from metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-13 07:18 am (UTC)Plus, you know, maybe there's a chicken-and-egg thing going here, because: what if the fangirl has only recently gotten into fandom, but the relationship is longstanding? Which do you prioritize?
i can't imagine being in an intimate relationship with someone i didn't trust enough to be honest about my interests with, even if i don't go into details about everything.
I mean, it would be great if we lived in a world where women were encouraged to value their self-expression and connections with friends as much as being a wife/girlfriend and/or having kids. I'm just not sure that world is here yet.
fwiw, i was born in 61, and that's how i was raised.
Re: Here from metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-13 07:55 am (UTC)And - sorry! - to be clear, I totally agree with you on both points, and I don't think that any relationship in which you have to hide your interests and parts of your identity from each other is a healthy one. At all.
What I meant was, not everyone's relationships are that healthy. So I was trying to provide a hypothetical suggestion for why the fangirl in the comic's reaction - however unreasonable or unwise, which I agree it is - might be a realistic one in some cases.
For the most part, in most of the countries where people would be watching Supernatural and participating in fandom, someone who goes to a counselor and says, "My significant other hit me," is going to get support. (And, you know, thank god for that.) Probably also if they say, "My significant other threw a fit about me spending time with friends," that will be seen as unreasonable.
But slash fandom isn't something a lot of outsiders understand or know how to respond to. Is it a hobby? A community? A lifestyle? A sexual kink? All of the above? It might be really hard for that fangirl to explain to family or friends why her relationship broke up. (Not that she should have to, not that "he threw a tantrum about my having interests he didn't approve of" shouldn't be enough of an answer, but people have a way of asking for details whether it's their business or not.) Depending on how seriously she took her fannish involvement, it might be hard to justify it to herself, or to see it as something she has a right to prioritize.
Is fandom only for the people who've got their lives together, and their self-esteem in place, and who can afford to be open with everything about themselves to the people around them? Because that's a steep requirement to live up to, and speaking only for myself, I wasn't there yet when I first got involved in fandom.
fwiw, i was born in 61, and that's how i was raised.
Well, that's awesome, and more power to you.
Re: Here from metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-13 08:50 pm (UTC)but i don't see how the details matter much. the important thing is "my partner got very controlling and wanted me to cut myself off from my friends and support network". there's no need to justify or defend, nor answer intrusive questions; rude questions require no response. (and sure, there will be people who will quesiton and people who will want to justify the partner's actions, whether those actions are controlling behaviour or physically abusive behaviour. not engaging with those people is the healthiest choice, as any engagement will give them the impression if they just convince you you're wrong, you'll do what they want.)
fandom includes anyone who wants to identify with it, and certainly there's no maturity clause -- but if healthy behaviours and responses aren't modelled and unhealhty ones aren't pointed out, it will harder for younger people to learn them -- especially if they're seeing pages of messages like "it's completely realistic and reasonable to let your partner control your life and cut off your access to your friends if sie's mad at you".
imo. ymmv. etcetcetc.
Re: Here from metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-13 11:59 pm (UTC)And no. The comic portrays a wife being emotionally attacked by her husband--the stimulus is unimportant, in the same way the stimulus would be unimportant if he hit her instead of simply attacked her verbally. I have plenty of problems with Kripke's portrayal of fans, but the idea that it's wrong because it might bring the issues in a bad relationship to a head really isn't one of them.
Re: Here from metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-14 12:12 am (UTC)it does sound like teasing vs mocking. but even if it was mocking, how is mocking x that one likes any different than mocking y that one mocks oneself -- except in one's own perceptions? shows mock religion, sexual practices, hobbies, etc., all the time. i find the idea that fandom should be exempt difficult to understand.
Re: Here from metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-14 08:43 pm (UTC)yeah, i don't really understand that.
Re: Here from metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-15 11:42 pm (UTC)Re: Here from metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-15 11:48 pm (UTC)Re: Here from metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-15 11:58 pm (UTC)But that's just me.
(I mean, I get that people stay in relationships for all kinds of reasons, and that people sometimes react one way to something when they initially find out, and then settle down, but in the former case that's also not a healthy relationship, really, and in the latter there's no reason to take such a drastic action in response.)