things I don't get

[mickeym]

Okay, so, this is the summary of the kink fill: Summary: This is my fill from a prompt on spnkink-meme: "Jared adopts a five year old little boy named Jensen. Jared tries to be a normal dad but he becomes more and more attractive to Jensen. One day after giving Jensen a bath he decides he can't take it anymore. Jared starts slowly conditioning the boy to like everything his dad does to him.
He starts with little touches, then fondling the boys little cock, then teaching the boy to suck his dad's cock and vice versa.
It eventually leads to sex. I'd love a detailed description of Jared huge cock penetrating his little boy's hole.
By the time sex happens Jensen wants it so bad. His daddy training worked so well he's begging for it."
DisclaimerI do not know or own (sadly) Jared and Jensen. They belong to themselves. This is fiction please to not be suing.
Warning:EXTREME UNDERAGE, m/m sex, dub con(ish),toys and again EXTREME UNDERAGE. Possible triggers.

I'm going to speed right on past the whole consent issues/age of child/fill content because my brain will explode otherwise, and that's not really what I'm wondering about.

What I'm really not getting here is that ALL of that is outside a cut...so while yay, the author is warning for 'possible triggers' it seems to me that just reading the summary/prompt itself could be pretty damn triggery, yes? I know I've seen people put the summary/prompt under a cut, or with the shading that has to be highlighted to see...haven't I?

I mean, am I wrong here? Again, NOT commenting on the fill itself, just the manner in which it's presented. I feel sometimes like we try too hard to sanitize everything, but in this case, I find myself wondering if a comment to the author to please put the prompt under a cut with a note about how THAT is possibly triggery wouldn't be the thing to do?

Thoughts? Comments? I'm doing homework in between this, but I'll be checking back, because I'm genuinely curious as to what y'all think.


ETA: I went ahead and commented thusly: Hey, there :) I want to ask a favor here, and that be that you put the summary/prompt under a cut of its own, because that's triggery in and of itself. (Do it just as you would a cut for a story, but close it with < /lj-cut > -- without the spaces, obviously.)

I know this is a hardcore comm and all, but some things are triggers for folks even in this comm, and something that descriptive could definitely cause problems for someone.

Thanks :)

Hopefully that's to the point and not...confrontational or anything.

Comments

[honeymull.livejournal.com]

IMO, that prompt is WAY too specific to be outside a cut that has warnings of its own. If the prompt was simply "Extreme underage, under-ten!Jensen/Adult!Jared", that might be different, but the prompt TELLS THE STORY. That seems WAY too risky a description to have floating out and about with no warnings of its own.

Not cool. >:/

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that was my thought. I'mma go leave a note for the author now, I think. Granted, it was posted to the spn_hardcore comm, but even so.

And no, not cool at all. :(

[honeymull.livejournal.com]

Seriously, thinking more about it from the angle of my own trigger, I know that just a throwaway line in a fic can cause all sorts of unpleasantness for me, and while everyone is different and this is not my particular trigger...Wow, I'd really want to exercise a "better safe" policy on this one.

And aside from the pet peeve of "warning" for same-gender fic, I'd say they need an 'abuse of power dynamics' or similar tag.

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

*snorts* I didn't even notice the 'warning' for same-gender. I was too busy going "OMGWTF???" over the summary/prompt.

[tabularassa.livejournal.com]

OMG This is HORRIBLE. Sorry, but this is just disgusting, fiction or not. What the fuck is wrong with PEOPLE?? WTF?

I would have deleted this whole prompt.

Wow. It shouldn't even exist.

And yes, it SO triggery.

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

No, don't apologize. I think it's disgusting, myself. But I was really trying not to...gah, I don't know. Exercise the whole "people can write/read what they want, and I have a back-button just in case". I mean, I'd be happy if shit like this disappeared for forever and never came back. But I was really thrown for a loop with the whole "warning: Possible triggers", and yet it's all out there to see. o_O

[tabularassa.livejournal.com]

I know, babe, just that description is too graphic, hell, it triggered things in me and I'm not a survivor of abuse. I just, FIVE YEARS OLD??? WHUT? No. I can't get past that.

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

Now imagine if you had a child, who when he was five was open and trusting and (like most kids that age) wanted only to please the adults he loved.

It makes me sick, and heartsick in a way I can't articulate -- because my son was like that, at five. I'm very thankful that no one hurt him in any way, and honestly, that was one of the reasons behind starting SO early with him, talking to him about things very openly and encouraging him to ask me questions and tell me things.

Gah. I think I'm going to go read and do my programming homework because it'll get my mind off this for awhile. :/

[tabularassa.livejournal.com]

This here is one of the reasons I don't want to have a child. Some sick motherfuckers out there, DO NOT WANT.

I'm very happy your son has not been hurt as well, and you're right with being so open with him. It helps.

*hugs tight*

Hope you have a good evening, with happy, shiny thoughts:) <3

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't know how happy or shiny my thoughts were, but it's amazing how reading about programming language and then doing four pages of homework questions will distract you *g*

[kkscatnip.livejournal.com]

That summary should without a doubt be behind highlight/cut/whatever.

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

I thought so, too (but really wanted to check I wasn't being overly sensitive, or whatever). I commented on the entry -- the story in its entirety is posted to the hardcore comm -- and asked nicely that the summary/prompt be put behind its own cut. Hopefully the author will comply.

[miafeliz.livejournal.com]

Uh... that is so wrong. This was actually a request for a kink fic? I know people in real life are so sick they actually do this to children, but are there really people who want to read about it? Where is human decency these days? Morality?

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

It was a prompt/request on the anon_kink meme, yeah. :(

Personally? I think it's disgusting -- because shit like that happens to children EVERY DAY IN REAL LIFE. Why would you want to read about it? But I'm trying really hard not to judge (too much) because I know people think that about some of my kinks. It's just... I don't write about five-yr olds being brainwashed into thinking they want something they're not emotionally/mentally capable of understanding.

Human decency? Morality? Long gone, I fear. :(

[tabularassa.livejournal.com]

PREACH.

[ruby-jelly.livejournal.com]

What she said.

[ninhursag.livejournal.com]

DUDE. I hear all these people complaining that kinkmemes aren't kinky enough these days, but I don't know. If that's kinky, dnw, outside of a cut (or frankly, inside of one)

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

Yeah. That's definitely not my kind of kinky, and I don't want it inside or outside of a cut either. (But there was NO WAY I wasn't going to put it behind a cut, here.)

[lk737.livejournal.com]

yeah, thank you for commenting to this person. i don't frequent boards for kink fills because i was molested as a child and something like this would have triggered others i know on lj who were molested also. to us, this is not sexy at all. it is frightening.

so from someone who would have been triggered stumbling upon this, thank you so much from the bottom of my heart. <3

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

Oh, hey, you're welcome :) And also lots of hugs, and high-fives for surviving! I was older than the child in this story (I was 12), and the person who initiated it was only 16 himself, but I do understand.

I don't pretend to understand how someone could think pedophilia is sexy, nor how anyone who has ANY understanding of children could think that a child would truly understand what's going on, and welcome it. Bleh.

It's a sad, sick world out there :(

But more hugs and kudos to you :) *snugs*

[lk737.livejournal.com]

thank you so much sweetie. big hugs and kudos to you too for surviving! i don't understand the appeal either, but not much i can do.

big gentle hugs to you honey *hugz* <333

[embroiderama]

UGH wow, that's...something I wish people didn't want to write or read. D: I'm glad you decided to comment.

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

Agreed. I have issues with underage characters, even when the age difference isn't that great, or there aren't the power dynamic issues of parent/child involved.

The author did change the summary, eliminating most of the original prompt, with a note of "I can't figure out how to do two cuts in one document". I left detailed directions on how to do it, but, whatever. She did leave up the "Possible triggers", so that's good. But yeah. I wish people didn't want to read or write it, either. :-/

[embroiderama]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of underage at all. There are things that (in fic) aren't such a big deal--two young teens fumbling around, a 16 year-old with a college-age kid--and things that are intended to be a bad situation, like young Dean being taken advantage of. Those things I can see the appeal of in a fictional sense. But this, what? Happy domestic pedophilia? GROSS. I totally judge.

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

My "okay with" level of underage has shifted, the older my son gets. Used to be I could read Sam being 12-14 (depending on what all was going on). Now? 16 is pretty much at the low end of that level. Likewise, like you, I can see/understand the appeal in a fictional sense of things like young Dean turning tricks to provide for Sam, etc.

But yeah, the whole pedophilia thing just makes me very, very nauseous. Any time there's the unequal power dynamic like that, combined with inability to give consent, just--ugh. No. It happens too much in real life, to real kids, for it to be anything I can be okay with.

I went back to see if the author had fixed the summary/prompt thing, and happened, in scrolling down, to see right near the end, which is supposed to be a number of years after the story begins, Jared giving his 'son' a freakin' collar, and Jensen switching between calling Jared 'Daddy' and 'Master'. He's something like 13. o_O

[zillahseye.livejournal.com]

It's so weird where you said that your idea of 'underage' has been climbing. I think my squick point's at like...25 now. *lol* I watch movies and if anyone's younger than that, I'm sort of like "ACK! YOU DON'T HAVE GENITALS! PUT SOMETHING ON!"

[flinchflower.livejournal.com]

I don't think that's hardcore kink, personally - that's illegal. If someone could get busted for reading it? It belongs under a cut. Even though I'm horrified by it personally, maybe someone healed a little writing or reading it - or maybe they were feeding their inner monsters. No way to tell. But illegal things? under cuts... tell me that makes sense...

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, it's not illegal -- just really icky. In order to be illegal (as in child pornography), it has to be a visual representation/depiction. (I went looking for the legal definition of 'child pornography'.)

From here:

Child pornography is the visual representation of minors under the age of 18 engaged in sexual activity or the visual representation of minors engaging in lewd or erotic behavior designed to arouse the viewer's sexual interest.

Child pornography may include actual or simulated sexual intercourse involving minors, deviant sexual acts, bestiality, masturbation, sado-masochistic abuse, or the exhibition of genitals in a sexually arousing fashion. In most instances, however, the mere visual depiction of a nude or partially nude minor does not rise to the level of child pornography. Thus, home movies, family pictures, and educational books depicting nude children in a realistic, non-erotic setting are protected by the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and do not constitute child pornography.

And yeah, if someone is working through their issues reading or writing it, more power to them. But that is definitely stuff that belongs behind a cut, with flashing neon warnings.

[lightthesparks.livejournal.com]

Depends on where you live. In my country, depending on how explicit the content is, even pieces of literature or art can be deemed as child pornography, i.e. writing something like the thing above would definitely be illegal. Which, honestly, makes me feel pretty damn good about my country right now.

[rahaeli.livejournal.com]

It's actually a lot more complicated than that. The law was revised in 2003 so that textual depictions can be considered child pornography, if they are also judged to be 'obscene', which requires a judgement call (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test) by the judge hearing the prosecution arguments. (The law also chnaged the definition so that a drawing/painting/cartoon/photomanip/etc can also be considered child pornography, whereas before it had to be a real minor.)

So, it'd depend on the judge, but yeah, there's a good chance something like that would be found illegal (and the author and/or anyone who downloaded it sent to jail and required to register as a sex offender once they were released). Mind you, whether or not it would ever get prosecuted would depend on the jurisdiction, and is highly unlikely given how much actual child pornography is out there and how little resources there are for the taskforces, but, yeah.

(Ironically, a messageboard/mailing list/forum where people discuss the age of consent laws and campaign for their removal would be less likely to be prosecuted/found guilty than someone writing fiction.)

[epeeblade]

I'm really disturbed by the requests for child porn I've found in this fandom. Like you, I don't want to tell anyone their kink is or isn't okay, but this...this I just don't understand.

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

I don't understand it either. It really is disturbing by how many (not to mention the content of some of them) requests there are. I don't want to tell someone their kink is or isn't okay, but it's really difficult in some instances, particularly like this.

And the whole 'dub-con(ish)' that the author noted... no. There is no 'dubious', it's completely non-consensual because a five year old cannot give consent.

[obeetaybee.livejournal.com]

As a mother of a nine year old boy, just reading that prompt makes nauseous and want to vomit. So totally should have been under a cut or more vague.

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

Hell, as the mother of an almost-17-yr old boy, reading that prompt made me nauseous.

The author did change the summary, deleting the trigger stuff, while leaving the warnings, so...yay. :-/

[ruby-jelly.livejournal.com]

Thank you for offering this situation of: "under cut or not", for consideration. It should indeed be under a cut, both prompt and story, and for the reason offered by Hunymull: "the prompt is the story".

I did see it, and I read it. I felt cold and sick inside. The physicality of such a young body, the mental and emotional manipulation, the power imbalance.

My preference, (this is my opinion, nothing more) is to eliminate abuse of babies and children in our societies. In fact, I ask, why is it so widespread? I know visual pornography of children is illegal, and actively prosecuted globally. As free societies, (and, that's why, I guess), we cannot legislate what is in people's minds obviously, only their actions. But, I wonder at the legitimacy of pedaphilia in fandom, even a hardcore kink meme. Is it really just a kink?

On another note, I wonder how many readers genuinely enjoyed reading the story? It's such a curious tension, isn't it. Free will, and boundaries.

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

The physicality of such a young body, the mental and emotional manipulation, the power imbalance.

This, exactly.

Unfortunately, it is only the visual representation/depiction of children in sexual situations that's illegal; stories, the stuff in writing, slides under the radar. But I can't help but wonder why anyone would want to read it, much less write it.

Pedophilia isn't a kink, it's an illness. And in this case (the general fandom-wide prompting, not this one in particular), it's being fetishized, in a way I don't remember ever seeing in any other fandom -- except possibly Harry Potter.

I do wonder if the people requesting/prompting this and/or the person(s) filling the prompts have kids. Because it seems hard to imagine that anyone who has a child could write about a child in this sort of situation.

In this case, now I've gone back to that post a couple of times, I've noticed things I didn't the first time I saw it: that the author's warnings included 'dub-con(ish)' -- there's nothing 'dubious' about this; it's completely non-con, as small children can't consent. There was also, just before the end of the story, a last bit that takes place some years later, making Jensen something like 13: Jared giving Jensen a collar, and Jensen thanking his 'Master'. So this author has not only tried to gloss over the consent issue, but also fetishized pedophilia into a BDSM relationship. All of which has me going O_O in astonishment.

[novaberry.livejournal.com]

good work, lady! That definitely should have been under a cut and you addressed it very well.

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

Thanks :) She has since changed the summary, removing the trigger stuff, so that's good.

[vickita.livejournal.com]

OMGOMGOMG... I don't consider myself a particularly trigger-y person, and I couldn't read that without squirming and skipping over most of it.

Yeah, no, I don't think there was anything wrong with a gentle request to put that behind its own cut.

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

Ditto. It bothered me, and not much bothers or triggers me, so I can only imagine how it would be for those who would be bothered or triggered :(

[vamptastica.livejournal.com]

that prompt is scary. seriously.

i'm surprised the mods left it up.

I'll be even MORE surprised if someone fills it!

the description is just twisted.

whoever put that up has some serious issues and needs to seek some help.

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, that prompt came as the summary FOR the fill. :(

The prompt is from the spnkink_meme, and over there, anything goes.

[ms-nerd.livejournal.com]

I'm just here to agree with everyone else. Do not like.

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

I know, honey :( It's depressing enough to have that crap out there in the real world; to have to see it in fandom really sucks.

[beanside.livejournal.com]

I...want that industrial strength brain bleach. I literally cannot imagine someone who thinks that is 'sexy' or 'titillating.'

*shudder* Why does the world not come with an eject button? I know that I've written some weird, fucked up shit that made people uncomfortable (more in Metallica Fandom than SPN). But it was meant to, not meant to be good fun sexytimes. Ugh.

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

*petpetpet* I cannot imagine someone thinking that's sexy or titillating either. I've written some weird, fucked up shit, myself, and yeah. But with this, I'm just left thinking "why???"

[maerhysetc.livejournal.com]

edited because i was not at all on topic. i may be back with something.... ♥

[cormallen.livejournal.com]

Eeesh. I am really reluctant to tell anyone what they should and shouldn't read, but that prompt is triggery and uncomfortable as hell. Personally, I think I'd be happier if I didn't see prompts like this in fandom, period -- although I do agree w. you and maerhys with regard to someone writing or requesting this type of prompt as a therapeutic, trauma-sorting experience. But, still, eeesh, so much dnw for this being anywhere on the wrong side of an lj cut.

[fufaraw]

I haven't even begun to process all the negative reactions I'm having to the prompt and the fic. There are layers, and all of them are screaming 'no!' I resent being told what I can and cannot write and read and try to extend the courtesy of not doing that to others. I understand, as some here have mentioned, that the author or the requestor may be working through issues. But it disturbs me in a horridly awful way that stuff like that is being requested and filled anywhere online or off, let alone in a fandom I love.

Thank you for requesting the cut. And at least they acquiesced to that.