so, I wonder

[mickeym]

I'm re-watching S5, and am just about through The End, and I find myself wondering...

What IF Dean said yes? What if he said yes before Lucifer could get out of Nick and into Sam? He's been shown what the likely scenario is if Sam said yes, and it's not a pleasant one to contemplate. And while I understand (I think) him wanting to save the world from the potential destruction of a Michael vs. Lucifer battle, if it meant that he and Sam would be safe and destinies fulfilled, then why not?

How would the world be (re)defined, after a death match like that?

Actually, now I'm wondering why there would even have to be earthly collateral damage. Michael and Lucifer slugging it out, wouldn't that be more a celestial thing? And did they have vessels the first time around? If they didn't, why would they need them this time around? Also, if the bloodline is a family thing, well, Nick wasn't a part of the Winchester bloodline...so how could he be a vessel? From the way it's presented to us, Adam was a vessel for Michael, as John was, and Dean -- so why did Sam have to be Lucifer's vessel (or why couldn't John, Adam, or Dean be a vessel for Lucifer)?

I have lots of questions :) Wondering. Also, very little sleep, which I'm about to go remedy. But I'm pondering. Anyone who wants, feel free to put forth your opinion/thoughts/ideas.

And maybe one of these days I'll finish writing my a/u story idea that starts with both Winchester boys born into a world very much like the one Dean visits in The End -- a world where Lucifer is walking around, topside, just waiting for his 'true vessel' to come of age and say yes to him. Writing? What's writing? ... yeah.

Comments

[epeeblade]

My interpretation was that Sam's body had been prepped by the demon blood as a baby and all of Ruby's machinations into being the perfect vessel for him. But I wonder if Nick was one of the "special kids" - a body that had been prepped by demon blood at 6 month but wasn't destined? That would have made sense...

[killabeez.livejournal.com]

But I wonder if Nick was one of the "special kids"

I like that theory a lot.

[killabeez.livejournal.com]

Actually, now I'm wondering why there would even have to be earthly collateral damage. Michael and Lucifer slugging it out, wouldn't that be more a celestial thing? And did they have vessels the first time around? If they didn't, why would they need them this time around?

I have kind of a theory about this. It's not a fully-formed theory, but it always bugged me (since Heaven and Hell) that when angels fight on Earth, they do it by punching each other in the face or using the angel swords. The angel swords fit the paradigm of the SPN universe, in that there's always a special weapon that can kill each kind of supernatural being. But the physical brawling always seemed so unlikely to me. However, the obsession with vessels, and getting the right vessel, leads me to think that after the first war in Heaven, God made new rules for the angels. He made it so they could only fight on Earth (which I think jives with a lot of the stuff we saw happen in S4 and S6 with Anna, Uriel, Raphael, Cas, etc.) and could only take a willing vessel. This was pretty bad news for the earth, and probably resented like hell by the angels. So, my thought about the Michael/Lucifer battle is that once it was decided, whoever won would essentially be the new King of Heaven (God being seemingly absent) and could make new rules. And since both Michael and Lucifer were angry at Dad, they'd likely take out their frustrations on God's favorites, the humans.

It is quite vague, though, why the battle between Lucifer and Michael would cause so many billions of deaths. I could see it if Lucifer won, but they indicate the battle itself will have wide-ranging casualties, which doesn't really mesh well with the must-have-human-vessels-to-fight limitation. (I hated every single thing about the vessels storyline, so it would be nice if there were some kind of explanation that made sense.)

As for Sam being Lucifer's vessel, I think maybe if Dean or Adam or John had had psychic powers and been fed demon blood as a baby, they would have been able to host him? But Azazel looks at Dean and says he's missing whatever it is he senses in Sam. So, I guess the psychic powers are necessary to be Lucifer's true vessel?

Anyway, I do think the first battle was fought without vessels, and that God imposed that limitation, maybe so that the angels would better understand his human creations.

Honestly, I still haven't made it through S5, and may never do so. Too many things that made me crazy. But these are the vague ideas I have.

[laurificus.livejournal.com]

I like these ideas very much. I haven't ever made it through all of S5 either, and I haven't seen, and will probably never see, the first 3 eps, so I don't know what all canon I might be missing, but I've always just kind of assumed that the battle was bad because of what it would bring about--not just in terms of what the victor would do (and I don't think Michael would've been any kinder than Lucifer), but also because once Lucifer and Michael fought, the rest of heaven and hell would probably get in on the act too. Just one of them killing the other wouldn't automatically wipe out their followers, you know? It's damaging because of what it sparks off--sort of a Duke Ferdinand kind of deal. Well, not really like that at all, but you know what I mean. *g*

And now I must go and wibble that John, Dean and Adam could all be Michael's vessels, and only Sam could be Lucifer's. I didn't know about John (see canon I've missed). Oh, Sam. There are not enough hugs in the world.

[killabeez.livejournal.com]

Michael wore Young John in the second time-travel episode, the one where Anna was trying to kill Sam. I think? Still haven't re-watched that one.

but I've always just kind of assumed that the battle was bad because of what it would bring about--not just in terms of what the victor would do (and I don't think Michael would've been any kinder than Lucifer), but also because once Lucifer and Michael fought, the rest of heaven and hell would probably get in on the act too

I thought that, too, at first, but then it was like "I have to fight my brother, Dean!" and I got sorta confused. It seemed like all the other infighting (and the Horsemen, etc.) were all preludes to the main event.

I guess maybe another possibility is, given what we saw Lucifer do in Sam's body (and Nick's), if the angels have the right vessel, they can exercise their full powers. So even if Lucifer(Sam) and Michael(Adam) started out throwing punches, they'd eventually end up smiting each other with huge nuclear-sized beams of holy wrath, or something. Maybe the fisticuffs was just a warm-up.

ITA about Sam, of course. :)

[mdlaw.livejournal.com]

It's best not to ask those kinds of questions. They'll only make your brain hurt. m :)

[stellamira]

I've always thought that there were several factors that made you go from being a vessel to the vessel. And you didn't need all of them, but the more you fulfilled, the better:

That you were from the bloodline of Kain and Abel (and Nick could've very well been a part of that), that you had a sibling (preferably one that was the other vessel). Due to their upbringing - influenced by both angels and demons - they were both physically strong and trained to fight. The angels possibly encouraged John and Mary's relationship because they thought that the liason between someone from the right bloodline (John) and someone from a long, long line of hunters (Mary) would produce the perfect children for their purpose. The demons nudged Sam in the right direction - and possibly other people, too. After all the YED spent a whole season looking for the perfect special kid.

And ultimately I think it was their characters and life choices that made them both the right vessels - if "choices" is the right word... Dean was the one who broke the first seal as "the righteous man" so according to the angels' prophecy he was supposed to be the one to finish the Apocalypse. Sam was angry at his father and jealous of his brother, and he broke the last seal which made him the perfect vessel for Lucifer.

[nrrrdy-grrrl.livejournal.com]

I really liked Adam a lot and would've even liked to've seen him as a recurring character. Now, though, I think that if he ever DOES come back it's going to be very evil. Somehow it almost seems inevitable.

[hunters-retreat.livejournal.com]

Nick wasn't a great vessel for Lucifer. The longer Lucifer was in his body, the worse we see his body deteriorating. He even mentions it at one point, that the body he's in can't contain him for too long. He needs Sam or he'll have to jump vessels once again and obviously, a being with that sort of power can't be held down by a typical person. (No idea why Nick is special, but he must have something :P). As for Sam, they don't say it specifically but since Azazel's whole plan was to bring Lucifer back, it makes sense that the entire purpose of the demon blood (both Azazel's & Ruby's)and Sam's powers was to create the perfect vessel for Lucifer.

As for the whole angels fighting thing... I sorta looked at it like the angels knew if they broke into full fighting mode that they could seriously damage what was there... and since they have been charged by God to protect people then they can't actively go around destroying things when they fight. However, Michael and Lucifer would have been an exception to that and they would certainly have reverted to their typical kick ass forms and torn huge chunks of the earth apart. Which is one of the reasons Sam OR Dean saying yes was a bad idea.

Just my thoughts (justifications) for this :P