angels, souls and vessels (oh my)

[mickeym]

So far we've been told/shown that angels can only enter a body with that person's consent. In S4's The Rapture, Castiel left Jimmy when he was pulled back to heaven; he returned by entering Jimmy's daughter (I guess in this instance, children can give consent? Or do the rules differ for kids? Guesses, anyone?) At the end, when Jimmy's dying and begging Castiel to come back into him, Castiel tells him it's forever, then, no going back. (Right? I didn't misunderstand that?)

So, does that mean Jimmy is essentially *gone*--only the shell remains? Is Jimmy's soul still in there, somewhere, presumably asleep if it is? Or is he truly an empty vessel, filled only by Castiel, and that part that makes Jimmy Jimmy, the soul, is it gone onto wherever in the Supernatural universe souls go when a person dies?

I'm trying to figure out, at the end of 5x04 , if Sam said yes to Lucifer...and it's Lucifer we're "seeing"... where's Sam. Is he (his soul) still inside his body, sharing the space with Lucifer (and presumably asleep--but not necessarily)? Or would Sam be gone?

Thoughts and speculations more than welcome :) (And if you've not seen up through 5x04 and don't want to be spoiled, probably shouldn't click, as there will undoubtedly be spoilers.)

Comments

[glendaglamazon.livejournal.com]

Considering the way that Raphael's vessel was left catatonic, I am going to go with the "soul goes away to wherever in the Supernatural universe souls go when a person dies" theory, as Jimmy hasn't been mentioned since The Rapture, and Castiel was exploded and reconstructed, plus Dean was told his "vessel" would be in worse shape than Raphael's since Michael is "much more powerful." That would argue against anything of Sam being there once Lucifer takes over.

This would make sense to me, as compared with demonic possession, because, presumably since demons take over without permission and are far less powerful than angels, the soul of the host is trapped inside. They haven't yet said so definitively, though, and I expect they will (and I certainly think they should) before we get down to the nitty-gritty of the Michael-Lucifer/Dean-Sam vessel situation.

[without-me.livejournal.com]

I'd initially been figuring that because Jimmy was dying, he gave consent for the permanent thing and then he went bye-bye... but then someone else made me think some more, and really, he shouldn't have died once Castiel entered him, right? Which would make it really creepy for fallen!Cas to be whoring it up in 2014, except that (as the same person noted) presumably Jimmy died for real when Castiel got pulverized at the end of S4, and maybe whoever put the angel back together again didn't bother to shove the not-having-much-fun-anyway human soul back in, too?

None of which really addresses your question, but my theory would be that Sam would still be in there with Lucifer--though quite possibly in a condition from which he couldn't recover (if being possessed by Michael would be much worse than being possessed by a garden-variety angel or demon).

[monicawoe.livejournal.com]

This is part of what I was speculating on in my last meta.

On the topic of Lucifer!Sam as we see him in 'The End', I wonder:
Was Sam's soul extinguished? Sent to hell? Put to sleep? Or was he forced to watch everything Lucifer did, without being able to do a thing to stop it?

The last possibility is not only the most depressing, but in my opinion, the most likely.

[miafeliz.livejournal.com]

I really, really am suspending my belief with they way the angels are being portrayed, as I view them as being non-corporeal beings. I had the impression that Jimmy's daughter was gifted with some ability to be a vessel for an angel and maybe she was able to consent. (In Catholic belief a child of about 7 is considered to have reached the age of reason, so is able to make certain choices which might lead to sin) so maybe she was old enough to choose to be a vessel. She seemed to understand.

I think it's interesting, like demons they require hosts, I think it would be hard to make "angels" non-corporeal for the show. For the sake of the show, so the angels have to be somehow present in a body and so it makes sense to have the vessel consent.

I would think if Sam says yes to Lucifer, he'd be giving up his soul. Essentially, wouldn't be like he's selling his soul to the Devil?


edit: back to the age of consent, not that would have been a thought of the writers actually. I've found all the religious stuff in this arc to be a mish-mash of various faiths, so maybe it's an anything goes idea.

[fpvs.livejournal.com]

I'm going to avoid the other comments, as I don't want anyone to go actually spoiling me on anything, but it was my understanding, as a viewer, that Jimmy and Sam are still there. Like, sometimes they're not fully aware of what is going on, but they're still in there, somewhere... Forever! *wibbles*

So... Jimmy is having a good ol' time in future!ep. :D
*ponders* If Cas were to get some of those girls preggers at one of his orgies, would it be Castiel's or Jimmy's DNA-stuffs? Would there be any Angel stuffs in the mix? *ponders*

Actually, I was quite perplexed by the whole deal - I figured that given the body was protected and did not require food, etc. - and wondered if Cas, at the brothel, could even get it up.

[stellamira]

Castiel in the daughter says to Jimmy that he won't die, and if the the last year was painful for him, he should picture a thousand more like it. I always interpreted that as Jimmy living on forever with Castiel inside him, being more or less aware of what's going on around him.*

So I'd say for Sam there's a good chance that he's still in his body but unable to do anything, and depending on how much of a sadist Lucifer is, it's likely that he lets Sam see what "they" are doing.

* Like without_me said above, though, that could have changed when Castiel died. Anna's body was destroyed, too, and yet she came back in it. Then again, she never had a human soul and an angel inside her at the same time.

[kitanabychoice.livejournal.com]

I would definitely believe that Sam is "dead" as far as his personality/soul/innate self would go. If Raphael left that one guy a shell of a man, I'm pretty sure that Lucifer would blow somebody out of their body completely.

However, I would have to say that in the The Rapture, Jimmy was able to hold on while being ridden by Castiel -- so it could be possible that if you have enough willpower, you could stay conscientious through being worn by Lucifer. If that's the case, then I would feel bad for Sam and hope like hell he'd not have to see Lucifer screwing things up while in his body.

[apreludetoanend.livejournal.com]

I've been going with the theory that Castiel's death was the end for Jimmy. We've already seen via Anna that a body can be duplicated or reconstructed, and Castiel being Jimmy-less is the only thing that's helping me reconcile the bizarre way they've been writing him this season.

[withdiamonds.livejournal.com]

I agree, I think Jimmy bit it when Castiel exploded. But I think Sam is still in Lucifer somewhere, because as far as we know, Lucifer didn't die and and get resurrected during those five years.

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

I second what someone said above, that Castiel would consider a ten or eleven year old to be of an age to consent, since an Angel probably considers being an agent of God's work to be a blessing, not a burden (though Castiel sees it a bit differently now).

I got the impression that Jimmy was essentially agreeing to be Castiel's vessel for as long as it took -- because Castiel himself would not want a corporeal form for any longer than the apocalypse would take.... so it could be a thousand years... but not forever, because that would be to deprive the Angel of his own reward in Heaven.

But I agree with everyone else that Jimmy died with Castiel, and was almost certainly not included in the resurrection (what would be the point in that?)

Jimmy's soul, according to Castiel in Claire's body, has gone to his reward in Heaven -- the same fate as if he had died then.

In terms of what happened to Sam in that future where he was possessed by Lucifer? I think we can't generalize from the experiences of other mortals, because regular rules don't seem to apply to Sam and Dean. They are specific, uber vessels for some mysterious reason --- and I bet you a dollar Sam is in there and screaming.

ALSO, I don't at all think that future is inevitable. It is just the very worst possibility, chosen by Z to cow Dean.

btw did you want a button? If you are not going to wincon, hey, I am not either! but I could mail it to you!

I am using my hugs for wee sammy icon this week. 5.4 was a big relief to me!!

[britomart-is.livejournal.com]

I've been assuming that Sam is still in there - that an angel doesn't boot the person's soul out, but may just severely damage it. In part just because I don't see how Show could pass up the pathos of having Sam trapped in there getting fucked up by the experience.

[epeeblade]

On the age of consent thing - apparently children can make deals with demons (see Bela) so why can't they consent to angel possession? Not that I don't find both of those ideas incredibly squicky...