hmm, or, thoughts about 4x14. Sorta.

[mickeym]

So, I'm curious.

What, to you, constitutes 'hating' a show? (specifically Supernatural, dammit *G*)

If, for example, I were to say (wrt ep 4x14) that I loved aspects of it, but other aspects made me sad, and that my version of Sam and Dean are probably a couple seasons removed from the writers' version (not always, just, sometimes), and that I don't like some of what the writers are doing because--boys! Distance! Not liking that!

Does that constitute 'hating' or 'hating on' a show? Because I really don't. (And I'm not saying anyone's accused me of that, or inferred it, or anything else. Just, from comments I've seen all over, I've started wondering.)

I love the show. I adore the show. It pains me sometimes, embarrasses me sometimes, makes me laugh, cry, scowl and occasionally throw pieces of paper at the television. Sometimes I wish my favorite authors were writing the episodes, rather than some of the writers -- and not necessarily for the slash value, but because a lot of the best authors in this fandom can DO things with the emotional resonance that makes my toes curl.

But I don't hate the show, I don't hate Dean, I don't hate Sam. I don't think either guy is perfect (far from it), I think they often speak or act without thinking things through, but I love them for their imperfections. I will always love both boys, but I remain a die-hard Sam!girl.

So! Thoughts? Comments? Chocolate? :) (And probably beware of spoilers in the comments, if you haven't seen the ep yet.)

Comments

[raynedanser.livejournal.com]

No, it does NOT constitute hating or hating on a show. It's ok if there's elements or even entire plot lines (like me? I CAN'T STAND Castiel and Uriel) and still like the show. I can prefer season 2 over season 4 and still like the show.

Anyone that says otherwise is ... warped. or if they think we have to love the show and what they throw at us no matter what, they take it and themselves a little too seriously.

[girlmostlikely.livejournal.com]

I don't think disliking parts of an episode--or an entire one, for that matter--constitutes hating a show. I hated just about everything about No Exit, other than the MotW. *g*

[copracat]

Loving without the capacity to criticise is not love. I don't mean that someone has to find fault for their love to be true and good, just that, yes, it most certainly doesn't mean you hate the show if there are some things you don't like.

[zillahseye.livejournal.com]

A lot of people seem to be very polar in fandom (not just in SPN, either). If you have the slightest issue with Sam, you're a crazyass Dean fanatic drooling to get in Jensen's pants. If you dare criticize Dean you're a hater who saws the horns off unicorns. If you don't like the female actors/girlfriends/het relationships, you're a psycho tinhat who hates yourself and all other women, probably because you're a fat, lonely loser who can't hook a man. If you don't like the direction of the show, album, interviews, or whatever other canon just came out, you stand in gridlocked opposition to all fans who like those things and are disenfranchising them from their corner of fandom. If somebody doesn't like your opinion, it's because you just want to bring them down. I don't know whether it was that fandom-on-LJ was much smaller and more homogenous years ago, whether it's the flourishing of wank comms that breed a sense of competition, isolation, and polarity, or what, but man have I seen a lot of puzzled questions among "older" fen over the last year or two. In conclusion, no, I wouldn't call that hating--but I'm sure others would.

[benitle.livejournal.com]

I firmly believe that you can dislike aspects of a show - a character, a storyline, a whole episode - and still love it. In fact, it's actually good if you criticize it because it shows that you really think about it. For me personally, hating a show seems to be more, like when you can't find anything good in it anymore and if you go into the new episodes with the expectations of disliking it.

Thank you so much for the vgift, darling! *shares candy hearts with you*

[annella.livejournal.com]

What benitle said! When you can't find anything good about the show and you expect to dislike everything about it, THAT is when you hate a show and I start wondering why on earth you watch it.

[ex-rosegany.livejournal.com]

See, I think it shows how much we love the show, how attached we are to these characters, that we can pick out things that don't sit right with us, don't feel right, don't feel like our characters, and yet still be invested, still have faith and interest, because you don't just give up on real loved ones because of imperfections, right? It's that kind of phenomenon with Supernatural that amazes me...That there can be things that pisses me off, and yet I'm fiercely protective of and devoted to the show. I've never had that kind of connection with a story before...

I'd love to hear you expand more on your thoughts on 4.14. I really enjoyed a lot of it, though I still need to rewatch it and think through it more critically. I hate our distanced!boys, even though it provides for delicious angst and what I thought in this episode was a refreshing plotline, rather than the same old Sam lies, Dean cries thing we've had lately. Even if I was writing the boys, all the way through the show, they might not be where they are now, I still can get into the story, believe in it, and be incredibly emotionally invested in these characters (and 4.14 broke my heart)...

So no, you obviously don't hate the show or the boys - you're a real, thoughtful partipatory viewer (or as we like to say in my geek world - a prosumer, a consumer and a producer, both of the awesome fic you write and just these kind of intelligent responses). And I know what you mean about wanting to see some of our writers write the show...I probably wouldn't be nearly as into Spn as I am if it weren't for the depth of the fan fic, and yet, I wouldn't be into the fanfic if I weren't so drawn to the show and all its potential..

And yes, I'm a Sam!girl too, though I seem to connect with Dean a lot. But I get insanely mad when Sam doesn't get enough screen time, or I think they don't get his actions right, which I have some quibbles about these last two seasons, here and there. But Dean-o, oh, *clutches* See my incoherent ramblings over on my LJ.

And guh, chocolate would be good right now. I am crampy and cranky...*shares chocolate and TMI*

[fuskeez.livejournal.com]

For every show I've ever loved, I can tick off things that I hated about it. I think it's the natural and normal thing to do. I think it's only when you run out of any good things to say anymore that someone should re-examine why they're watching something in the first place, ya know? But that doesn't seem to be the case here.

[fpvs.livejournal.com]

I don't think that would constitute hating a show. You must hate
everything and everyone on a show to "hate" it. And must degrade and diss the majority of a show to "hate on" it. imo

[azziria.livejournal.com]

I'm with you here (and not just in being a die-hard Sam girl!). Not liking certain aspects of a show doesn't mean you hate it. As long as there's still something drawing you back to watch it, then you don't hate it.

At the moment I get exactly where Sam is coming from. I also get exactly where Dean is coming from. I dearly, dearly want to bash their heads together and get them to actually TALK to one another (or bash the writers' heads together). This distance between them is making me very uncomfortable - but it's not making me hate either one of them, or hate the show.

I am worried about where it's all heading. I am wondering/worrying that maybe Kripke is going to take it somewhere that means I can't bear to watch it any more. But then I tell myself that he actually does need the fans to watch the show, so surely he won't go far enough to totally alienate us? Because I'm an intelligent and really very forgiving fan, so if he loses me then he'll lose a lot of others first.

[stungunbilly.livejournal.com]

Um, even if you *were* hating on the show, I kind of wouldn't care. Hating tv is completely acceptable. I support people having their own feelings, including anger at mass media.

But it wouldn't occur to me to think critical analysis was hate, either.

Hating on the show just doesn't bother me, so it actually takes me a minute to think of what I would call 'hating on' the show. Hmm, you know, I just wouldn't. People should hate tv if they want! It's totally fair game.

Okay, wait; here we go. If someone tears up the show in a way that insults a gazillion random bystanders who actually will hear the insults, that's hate. Like, it's fine to say what you want to see and be upset you didn't see it on the show, but insulting women characters *for being women* sucks. Not wanting additional romantic interests is just having your own taste, though.

[munibunny.livejournal.com]

I think we all have faith that Kripke and Sera Gamble still believe that Sam and Dean are SamandDean. So, despite the fact that we may not like the direction things go from week to week, we want to believe that, in the end, things will be resolved and it will be the two of them riding off into the sunset together.

There are certainly things I HATE about the how. Ruby 2.0 for one (and it has nothing to do with Jared and Genevieve hooking up - although I do HATE the fact the show stooped to casting Jared's gf in an important role as a crossroads demon, and I do question whether Ruby's continued presence has anything to do with her new role in Jared's life). And I really want the "angels v. demons" storyline and the "where in the world is Lilith" storyline to move along a little faster toward resolution.

But, hey, it's a TV show, and we may be a little too invested in it, but that's the only reason we're so passionate about it. It's all cool.

[nopseud]

I think hating a show requires actively wanting it not to be made any more. Just not liking parts of a show, or even not liking the whole show, doesn't have the emotional depth to count as hate for me.

I don't enjoy SPN, but that means I just don't watch it. I don't wish it ill. On the other hand, I hate Merlin and Primeval because they're sucking up money and viewing slots which could be spent on British SF/fantasy shows which aren't lazily written tripe. I wish they'd get canned and the money spent on something better to replace them.

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

I don't think I've ever bothered to Hate a show. If I don't like, I just don't watch. I mean, I tune in SPN, rewatch on your kindly provided downloads (THANKS HUGE BUCKETS) and stream Lost, and that's IT. So I am a very harsh critic when it comes to tv.

That said, I'm really more interested in constructive criticism than negative spew, which annoys me. You know, if bardicvoice has something negative to say, then I respect that! because she takes time to back it up. Also, she's not LOOKING for the negative, but if something bothers her, she doesn't silence that. So I hugely respect that.

Then if my lj friends are annoyed by something, I have another response, which is, I try to see it the other way round, and I'll often post, like, maybe you could look at it this way -- tho I know that seldom helps!! but I enjoy seeing lots of different pov.

like ok, I didn't like the casting for Anna. I'm personally turned off because I think the girl is dangerously thin -- but I don't harp on that because that might just be my personal reaction. But I also don't feel she was up to the acting task. Just think if Anna had been played by the woman who played Pamela Barnes -- because, you know, someone strong can still become confused and vulnerable and then find new strength in a new revelation, strength enough to share. And then that whole very important two part show would have been SO MUCH BETTER, if we could really see Anna as the Angel Castiel used to report to. You know? It still doesn't prevent me from enjoying the parts that were so well done, like the tricky demon/Angel orchestration, which I loved.

I don't like to read ahead for spoilers, and I think spoilerhunting might be contributing to the air of negativity. For example, to use Anna again, I by mistake watched the preview for the second half, and OMG, I saw Dean kissing on her, and I was like WHAT!!!! then I was tense and crazed for the next week. imho, they worked it out pretty well, but that little spoiler made me CRAZY. I was so afraid they were just gonna toss Dean in bed with her for no reason whatsoever, but looking back, I can see a lot in it. Like, the big contrast between Dean looking for love, gentleness and forgiveness, as opposed to Sam's messed up thing with Ruby (whatever it entails, it's not love, at least on Sam's part, and I'm totally not a Ruby hater). So a lot of folks were set up to react badly to that episode, before it even went down. But I really held back from going on and ranting about what I feared was coming, because that just doesn't make sense.

Which leads to my final bit, which it that I really don't get it when people complain about where they speculate the show is going. What? Now they're complaining about what Show hasn't even done yet?? I'm not saying, like, rational fears, because Dude, after last ep, we are ALL QUAKING IN OUR COLLECTIVE samndean loving BOOTS. That ep really HURT, because I am really emotionally invested in the boys. It was BRILLIANT, but so painful! But why be like "now they're gonna jump the shark." Why do that to yourself. Just leave the show if you don't like it anymore, or if you're too worried about where it's going. I left Buffy because Joss kept killing people and I finally couldn't take it! I even left XFiles before they were done.... and I loved those shows a lot. I never hated them. Still, of course, people have the right to complain out loud on their own ljs and among their friends if that's what flips their flippers.

I think SPN is super smart TV. Still has its problems of course (primarily the overly homogeneous casting pool imho) but it has so much going for it. I LOVE show. I LIVE show 24/7. I sometimes have to institute the "No samndean talk" rule on myself, in order not to drive my family insane.

Anyhoo, anytime you have a problem with show, speak up, because I trust you to back it up, and I'm interested in what you have to say.

Castiel wonders how anyone could ever hate him!