thoughts on posting fiction online/in LJ

[mickeym]

Morning, y'all :) (Or, well, sorta. It's still morning somewhere, right?)

So I've been pondering the writing/posting thing again -- prompted in a way by the scads of 1/? posts I'm seeing lately, along with authors who seem to think that a story with Sam/Dean or Jared/Jensen with a rating of NC-17 requires a warning for m/m sex (or a detailed listing of everything they're going to do to each other). Or the notes wherein the author says "This isn't beta'd, so ignore all the errors, and by the way, it's complete crack!" or something to that effect.

While pondering, I find myself wondering if these aren't things that maybe the author(s) just don't think about, or realize might be off-putting, or maybe the author is very new to LJ/internet/fandom/all of the above.

I've been involved in online fandom as a reader since the spring of 1996. As a writer, since the fall of 1996. I remember the very laborious process of copying and pasting my WordPerfect document into the teeny tiny box that Usenet gave us for the messageboards, and later, adapting to posting things to mailing lists, and now, to LJ. I'm far from being the expert on all things fandom, butI like to think I know a thing or two about how to present a story to an audience to engage them, rather than make them run for the hills.

I'm wondering if a basic "how-to" primer would be useful -- and if anyone out there would be interested in participating in the project? What sorts of things do YOU, as a reader and/or writer, think should be included? Fannish writing terms (drabble, ficlet, fic)? Definitions? Samples of headers? Basic coding? How not to format your post? Things that should/shouldn't be included in author notes/headers? When a story should be posted as an on-going WIP vs. when it's better to wait?

I'm not talking about a primer on how to write. That's a whole 'nother kettle of fish. But I can't help but wonder if something like a 'how to post fanfiction' wouldn't be helpful, because there are an awful lot new fans flocking to LJ daily, and I suspect I'm probably missing out on some great stories simply because of the way the story is (or isn't) presented.

Thoughts? Comments? Willingness to assist in this project? Reasons why you think this is a bad idea? Hit me! (Also, feel free to link to this wherever; I'd love to see as much input as possible.)

Comments

[benitle.livejournal.com]

What an interesting idea! I'd like to contribute to a project like this.

Here's a few thoughts I'd like to put out there for discussion:

- The wording should make clear that all of those are just suggestions and not rules per sé. You know how fandom can be up in arms very easily.

- I think a glossary of the most common fandom terms would be a great idea, as well as help with basic coding, netiquette and a guideline re: ratings (when to use what).

- For a section of "we'd advise you not to say the following things in your header", there could be polls and posts beforehand to collect what fandom comes up with.

- Maybe links to helpful communities (where to post which fic, where to get a beta from, where to get help with additional research).


I'm thinking about setting up a community where we could post entries like polls to ask people for input and in the end, we have one final entry with the results of all the research we've done.

Just a few first thoughts. Either way, I'd love to help. :)

Edit: Thank you SO much for the lollipop! *licks it... and you*

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

The wording should make clear that all of those are just suggestions and not rules per sé. You know how fandom can be up in arms very easily.

Oh, my God, YES. Definitely it should be made clear from the get-go that this is all simply suggestion, but suggestions made by those of us who've been there, done that, have survived to tell about it *g*

I love the idea of a community! Have all of the information in one place, yes. And I dunno, should probably say somewhere that this is fandom-wide, not specific to any one fandom.

Those are good first thoughts :)

Ooh, licks! :) *snugs* You're very welcome. :)

[winterweathered.livejournal.com]

Part of me wants to say yes, definitely.


...

But (the bitchy) part of me wants to say NO. Because I kind of like being able to tell the good fic from the possibly bad fic at first glance. Hahaha.

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

*snickers* Well, yeah. But y'know...chances are you're gonna still be able to tell. Some things just can't be hidden, no matter what ;)

[winterweathered.livejournal.com]

Like BANNERS. Don't give away the secret about how badly manipped ginormous fic banners outside of cuts are NOT ACTUALLY AWESOME.

[raynedanser.livejournal.com]

Unless, you know, there's that COOL comm that won't let people post if the banner is out of a cut.... And OMG I have turned down a dozen people that have tried anyway lately, you know? ARGH

[winterweathered.livejournal.com]

I'm starting to not even explain to people why their posts get rejected, I just say, "Please read the community rules," and hit reject.

[raynedanser.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm getting to that point. Good grief.

[destina.livejournal.com]

Can you think of a tactful way to tell people that 1/? and posting in 48 chapters over a year are both an automatic 'DO NOT READ' sign in neon pink, due to issues of either author feedback whoring or not having a clue where they are going with the story, or the chance of having to wait weeks between chapters, or never seeing the thing finished? Or maybe it's just me. *g*

I dunno. I think I'm a little too burned out on fandom right now to offer much help, but you have my support. *hug* And thank you so much for my wee duckie, which made me smile. :D

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

Maybe tactful isn't the way to go? *g* Some people need to be hit hard with a clue-by-four, methinks. But anyway, mostly I'm just tired and frustrated. And possibly a little burned out on fandom, myself. :)

*snuggles you* You're very welcome, honey.

[winterweathered.livejournal.com]

Fuck tactful. Tactful is boring.

[nopseud]

I dunno. I mean, I think for everyone who doesn't like to see 1/?, there's probably someone else who loves reading serials and doesn't care whether it's already plotted out or not. Likewise with other conventions. Quite possibly those posters came into SPN from fandoms where the conventions were just different, and they won't see why your preferences automatically overrides theirs.

I suspect that in the end all you're going to do is create a set of rules for how to post to please one specific set of people, which is unlikely to be adopted generally. Of course, it might be, so there's nothing to be lost by giving it a try. New fandoms tend to swirl around with mixed-up sets of conventions for things like that until it finally settles out into that fandom's way of doing things. No harm in trying to get in and tweak it the way you prefer :-)

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

Hee, you're assuming I get it beyond the 'thinking and contemplating' stage *g*

It was kind of a shock to come into the Supernatural fandom where they required headers and shit, after four-plus years of writing in popslash where headers didn't happen, more often than not. Mostly? I get tired of skimming headers and seeing things like:

warnings: explicit m/m sex, anal, blowjobs, rimming

Because seriously? if you've rated it NC-17, and the pairing is guy1/guy2? chances are I'm going to figure out there's going to be explicit m/m sex *g* And I don't want to know the other stuff ahead of time--that takes some of the fun out of it.

Or it could just be that I'm cranky today. That's entirely possible :P

[nopseud]

if you've rated it NC-17, and the pairing is guy1/guy2? chances are I'm going to figure out there's going to be explicit m/m sex *g*

See, you say that *now*, but you'll be grateful the day that someone writes a story where Sam and Dean are a couple, but instead of any sex they get captured by a demon which flays Dean alive inch by inch in graphic detail and then slurps up his internal organs like spaghetti. NC-17 -- it's not just for porn :-)

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

NC-17 -- it's not just for porn :-)

Okay, I'll give you that one. *g*

So, fine, you wanna tell me it contains 'explicit m/m sex', GREAT. But I say again: don't list out everything they're going to do in bed. "rimming" isn't something you need to warn for. Or blowjobs. Or anal. Particularly if you've already said 'explicit m/m sex'. ;)

"warnings" (and I SUPPOSE ymmv) ought to be things like...kink. Character death. Bestiality. *g* Stuff like that. Y'know?

Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiins. Cooooooooooooooooooooooooooows! ;) *sniggles*

[nopseud]

See, this is where my EPIC laziness as a reader kicks in, because if popslash stories came with headers like that, I wouldn't even have to open them and skim down them to see if the sex scene was likely to be toasty-hot. I could just pick the ones with yummy-sounding headers. Think of the clicks I'd save!

OTOH, I LOVE that popslash doesn't requite headers, because I'm also so lazy I hate doing them and I think trying apply the US movie rating system to fiction is fundamentally stupid.

It's kind of sad when inertia manages to pull in two different directions like that.

{sniggles}


(Sadly, people never include the really helpful warnings, like 'contains gratuitous character-bashing', or 'could not punctuate dialogue correctly if held at gunpoint', or 'yeah, I just wanted to write yet another of my weird fetish stories in yet another fandom where I have no clue who the characters are' or 'wrote really hot build-up then faded to black, so see if you're getting any porn, sucker!'.)

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

I think trying apply the US movie rating system to fiction is fundamentally stupid.

I totally agree with you. Actually, it was like a bucket of cold water dropped over me when I did start writing in SPN, because for four lovely, lovely years I had three ratings: not rated, R or NC-17. My stance behind that being what the fuck does it matter, G, PG, PG-13... we're all supposed to be adults reading it ANYWAY. Y'know? It's really my biggest complaint about the 'mainstreamness' of SPN fandom (and probably other mainstream fandoms).

As for the not including helpful warnings... well. *g* The way things are right now, you can often figure that out based on the way stories are posted/presented. So maybe...the how-to primer would do more harm than good? ;)

[zillahseye.livejournal.com]

In my experience (not as long as yours, I started in '97, *grin*) telling people how to do something in fandom, especially in some kind of formal way, gets a mixed reaction. Usually long-time fans go "Dude, I know, right? These kids today! Rock on." But other people say "Oh look, it's a BOFQ trying to force all of fandom to conform to her personal opinions." I have noticed that different fandoms have different standards for posting--that something in X community might be annoying as fuck but it conforms to the majority of what's posted there--so it's hard to say "This is how you should do it" without looking like you're trying to project the authority of a part onto the whole.

On the other hand, it'd be nice if it worked. *grin*

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

Well, there are a few things that I think are universal... like using a cut-tag when posting *g*

I dunno if it's a good idea, or something doomed to failure, or even feasible. I just know that I spend day after day wanting to bash my head against the nearest hard surface when I see the same WIPs that never seem to progress, xposted across 99 comms, telling me everything I never wanted to know (warnings: contains explicit m/m sex, anal, blowjobs, rimming) ahead of time, etc.

Also? I'm having trouble keeping track of my thoughts, since Matthew is currently blasting Jimmy Neutron, and even having him lower the volume three times now still has it too loud to actually form coherent thoughts...

[rainbow.livejournal.com]

You are so much more patient than me. I think I would have told him if I can still hear it after he turns it down, he's turning it OFF.

Erm. I have issues with loud. Possibly ;)

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

The problem is that the very people you want to reach probably AREN'T GONNA FIND THE PRIMER :P

Seriously, I feel like most things rub off by exposure, and the best recommendation I'd ever make is to look around some before doing anything (and I know that's not gonna be listened to).

Plus, of course, there are as many opinions as they are fans...WiPs are just dandy in some fandoms whereas others they might be deemed more problematic.

But in general, I think it's a great idea if you could only get it to people when they really need it...

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

Well, IF this thing came to fruition, I think I'd ask the fic comms if I could post it there -- because yeah, getting it to the ones who need it is the tricky part. But this is more a feeling-out, seeing who might be interested thing, more than anything. :)

[vickita.livejournal.com]

Heh heh heh... I was thinking that the very people she wants to reach will inevitably be the people who think that she doesn't mean *them*. *ggg*

But it may reach a few, reachable people. This is kind of my attitude in maintaining the intranet at my job; vast numbers of people that I work with will never think of looking at the intranet rather than asking IT/the secretary/whoever the same old FAQ for the thousandth time... but a few people will. So, to whatever extent it helps, hey, it helps *some*.

God, I've gotten cynical in my old age. ;-D

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

I think the longer we spend online, in fandom, the deeper our cynicism grows. ;) (And mine isn't helped by working for the police dept, where I get to literally see/hear about the scum of the earth...)

[apetslife.livejournal.com]

I know I figured out how to format stories, etc. by simply READING. I saw how others were formatting and posting, and I copied them. Monkey see, monkey do. *grin* Part of me thinks this primer would be terriffic, and I would totally participate. The other part thinks that if they haven't picked it up from context cues, are they really going to read a primer?

Still, it would be a neat thing to have lying around, just to gently point newbies towards!

And THANK YOU for my flower! Eeeeee, I loves it! *HUGS*

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

Yeah, a lot of us learn by reading/seeing -- and I can't figure out why so many lately seem unable to do that.

Part of me thinks this primer would be terriffic, and I would totally participate. The other part thinks that if they haven't picked it up from context cues, are they really going to read a primer?

And that's a good point -- maybe they wouldn't. I don't know if it's even anything that'll get off the ground, though I did think it worth asking about, to gauge interest. Mostly I just wish I could read through headers without feeling my blood pressure rise from the things people feel compelled to WARN me about. Y'know? :)

And you're welcome :) *hugs back*

[apetslife.livejournal.com]

I have seen the most WACKY warnings lately, you're right. I mean, for me, warnings are for things like death, kink, drug use, anything triggery, y'know? Not slash, or swearing, or (I am not kidding) kissing. I totally get where you're coming from. *G*

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

Yes. IMO, 'warnings' should be for triggery things. Not for m/m sex (if it's a m/m pairing, then, buh?). Not for swearing, or kissing, or anal, or blowjobs, or rimming. I still haven't recovered from the first time I saw "rimming" listed in the warnings -- and that was last year some time. *g*

I told Matthew you might be staying with us, and he said "is her horse going to be here, too?" Heee!

Also, I don't remember now if I ever answered your question about driving from here to the horse park, but I'm pretty sure it's a straight shot across the Bluegrass Parkway, and yeah, it'd be about 75min. (depending on what time you got into Lexington, and how FAR into Lexington you have to go)

[apetslife.livejournal.com]

Dude, if we end up coming, you and Matthew really really should come to the horse park! It's so cool! He could pet the pony and maybe even take a ride! And I would totally stay with you at least one night, that's not such a bad ride. If I have an early morning event I'll just sleep in my car.

They're still working out details on shipping. Hopefully they'll find me a ride...getting ME there isn't the problem, but getting the pony there is going to be a huge deal. There are a couple of hopefuls, but one fell through. I will keep you updated!

(I'm using the icon of the pic of me and Dom from our LAST visit to the KHP. Oh, for the days when he had a rich mom and I was just the all-expenses-paid trainer!)

[winterweathered.livejournal.com]

The other part thinks that if they haven't picked it up from context cues, are they really going to read a primer?

Yes, this. I'd been in fandom for less than a month the first time I posted a story, and I had already figured this stuff out.

[j-p-fan.livejournal.com]

To be honest, I'm completely lost :\
Sorry.

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

S'okay :) This was me mostly rambling outloud, and working through a bad case of crankiness.

[j-p-fan.livejournal.com]

Aww, why so cranky?

Oh you totally don't have to answer that if you don't want to btw. Feel free to tell me to go away if I'm bugging you.

[flambeau.livejournal.com]

"Please use your brain. Thank you."

...no?

No. But it's an appealing thought. *g*

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

Ahahahahaha, yeeeeeeeeeah. Kinda goes along with Des's comment about finding a tactful way to say something about WIPs. Also about as likely to happen. :P

[flambeau.livejournal.com]

But see, I have nothing against 1/? WIPs. I don't read them, but that's an evolved preference; it's how I first got started posting stuff myself, way back when, and I'm not sure I would ever have gotten past the... investment threshold? without some initial feedback. 1/? isn't really doing something wrong, unlike wonky formatting and not following comm rules. I don't think it falls under "how to" exactly (or "how to not" *g*), more like "just be aware that many people will not read."

[ruby-jelly.livejournal.com]

I like the reassurance when a writer states they've plotted it out, or even it's already completed, but being posted over an anticipated period of time. This is when I'll risk a WIP! Otherwise it's just too annoying to be left hanging. Guh, don't I sound petulant? Sorry, just my creaky soap box *blush*

[rainbow.livejournal.com]

Well, I have 2 thoughts.

1. It's a great idea. Most fic lists used to have that as part of the greeting email, I think), and posting it on your (or some other) site where people could link to it would be lovely.

2. It will make people happy/piss people off/go completely over people's heads in about equal proportions, probably.
Unfortunatley the first group will be 95% people who are glad there's some place to point the newbies to.
The 2nd group with be people (not all newbies) who will take exception because "but this is how it's done over *here*.
Sadly, the 3rd group will be most of the people who could actually use it. They might be less than 1/3 of the people, realistically. Possibly 10%.

Okay, a 3rd thought. Might be worthwhile to note in it that different fandoms have different conventions for fic, and that even different sites about the same fandom have different conventions, so lurking and figuring out what those conventions are before posting is never a waste of time.

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

Thanks for chiming in :) (Chimming? That doesn't look right spelled either way. *frowns*) I was much more enthusiastic about this idea this morning, making the post. Since then I've reconsidered that I'm likely just burned out on fandom and online stuff, and quite likely cranky to boot. :) And your point #2 is SO right on, which is really the rub, isn't it? The ones who need it the most are the least likely to even notice it.

*snugs* :)

Also, Matthew and I reached a compromise: he turned it down some more, and I put headphones and some music on. It's working pretty well for us. :)

[rainbow.livejournal.com]

Chiming *g*

I do think it would be a good resource though, even if it's the basics of netiquette (like lurk, THEN post). At least folks would have something to link to. *g*

Yay you!

I had gotten Paul some noise cancelling headphones for his music player, and since I've been doing better I've started using them when I use the bouncy chair, and I'm hooked. Now I use them when he's watching annoying shoot em up tv, when I just want relaxamusic (well, not music. My favorite one is nature sounds), when I'm putting around purging boxes, etc.

He bought me my own set last week *g*

[withdiamonds.livejournal.com]

*sigh* I think the people who do the things that make our blood pressure rise and make us not read the story get encouragement from the people who *do* read and respond with "omg plz rite moar" and so don't know/don't care that it drives the rest of us up the wall.

And the banners seem to be sort of trendy right now. Maybe they'll go away soon?

[mickeym.livejournal.com]

It's funny that you answer this post with the "omg plz rite moar" (dude, I can't even misspell that without difficulty!) when I just noticed a couple of new posts:

1. The author's notes talk about the story containing mentions of 'alcaholism', and

2. The title "Scars to Bare". Which I suppose could be intentional, but more likely is meant to be "Scars to Bear".

I have a feeling I should back away from the internet for a while. o_O

[withdiamonds.livejournal.com]

Oh, god, Kim. I just read a header with a "desclimer" but to be fair, I don't think English is the first language there.

Also, I think disclaimers in general are stupid. What the heck is the point? Does anyone really think they mean anything?

[raynedanser.livejournal.com]

Something is definitely needed. Warnings are shiny, but only to a certain extent.

Do I want to know if there is noncon? You betcha. I won't read it. Period.

But do I want to know if there is fisting, sex, rimming, etc? No. That's a bit overkill. Tell me the pairing, tell me there's sex and WHY is everything else necessary?

And no, a m/m pairing does NOT automatically require an NC17 rating. DUH

You know what else would be a good thing to include in this primer? HOW to format your post, including that using custom formatting, colors, fonts, sizes, etc is incredibly annoying to your readers. Just post the damn thing.

Also, artwork? Behind a cut, thanks. I don't need the clutter on my flist.

[joans23.livejournal.com]

I think it's a great idea! Cause yeah, sometimes there will be things that'll bother me (like the warning for m/m sex - when the pairing is Sam/Dean or J2 for heaven's sakes!) and then I worry that maybe I also do stuff like that, that piss people off. So hope "how to post fanfiction" is a GO!

[ruby-jelly.livejournal.com]

My first thought is YES! Then I got to the end, and read 44 comments! Phew! Wondered if it's worth commenting. Before I read through though, I'd like to say, I think it would be a great idea, and I'd be happy to offer my reactions to descriptions I've read, because I feel very insecure when thinking about posting myself, and disappointed when the description leaves me lost. Often the writers skill and style reveals itself at this point, too. I dislike the suspense / motivation to read taken away, but don't mind death warnings.

Happy to contribute more thoughts if you wish.

Ruby

[poetdiva28.livejournal.com]

I am all for this project. As a reader, nothing turns me off faster than a story that's not beta'ed and you tell me about it. It shows a lack of effort on the author's part, and if you do read the story, most of your feedback is wasted on grammar/spelling errors.

As a writer, I would want to put my best word forward so to speak. I'm nervous enough as it is when I do post a story, but to have to worry about it not being up to snuff from a presentation standpoint is pure insanity to me.

[copracat]

This is a great plan.