mickeym | it's going to be one of those nights

Do what works best for you, and for the story. *HUGS* Switching is good (between sections/chapters), and not switching is also good!

*points* What she said.

*hugs* Thanks, darlin' :)

I am *really* struggling with this--because I can see the story in my head as told by both Sam and Dean, or just Sam. *headdesk*

I wrestle with this one a lot. I like to switch POV because I mostly write PWPs and I think the sex is more erotic if you can manage to capture both sides of the experience.

I think the most important thing is to try and have the POV changes make sense. A good story should have a rhythm to it and if you can make your changes match the rhythm it can work.

Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

Normally I don't wrestle with it at ALL -- and I've done stories (not a lot, but a few) where the POV switches/alternates. I think I'm having trouble in this case because I can picture the story both ways: from Sam AND Dean's POV, and also just from Sam's.

Thanks for your opinion!

Really, I don't have a hard and fast rule for what POV a story should be written. My story always dictates that itself. But what I would say is that if you are going to have more than one POV, it's important to give them equal time and not just one POV through 90% of the book and then introducing another random POV in just one scene or at the end of the story and nowhere else.

I don't think you have to get tied up in alternating EVERY scene, mind you, but just makes sure that both POVs get their fair share of time.

Yeah, it's the *equal* that's kind of throwing me, which is why, although I can see the story from two or one, I probably ought to go with one.

Ugh. Is writing supposed to be this difficult? *headdesk*

There is a reason I call myself my muse's abused junkie girlfriend. *nods*

*snickers* God, your ICON.

Can I request it to come kick my muse's ass, too? Please? :)

You can try. So far it has singularly failed at kicking Kink's ass in any functional or useful way. *sighs*

*petpetpetpetpet*

Maybe we should fire 'em both and hire new ones. :)

*snuggles you*

AGH, that was me before... PAY NO ATTENTION TO THAT CATJIHAD BEHIND THE CURTAIN... I um, suck at remembering what I was logged in as...

So um, what I said before. POV switches in-between paragraphs = brain hurty. POV switches in interludes and side-stories = okay by me!

*slinks off*

I wondered who the hell that was *g* Kept thinking "have I seen that name before?" :)

And no slinking off, missy! :) Thanks for your thoughts :)

I tend to be wary of shoulds when it comes to writing, because for every rule (show don't tell, use proper grammar, etc.), there's a beautiful example of someone who broke it.

As for changing voices, I think it's entirely up to you, and how the story seems to want to tell itself. I've read many excellent long single-POV stories (both in fanfic and in profic), and also many excellent stories whose viewpoint shifted. I do have to say that I would find it really difficult and jarring to read a long fic whose POV shifted every paragraph (it'd be like reading William Gibson, snerk).

I can't wait to read it, whatever the structure/viewpoint turn out to be!

The story feels, in my head, like it could be told either by Sam AND Dean, or just Sam. And the more I think on it, the more it's seeming to lean toward just Sam. So maybe all I needed to do was have y'all make me actually think about it. *g*

*grumbles* I just hope I get it done in time. I don't know what I was thinking, deciding to do an a/u where RESEARCH is involved!

Oh, hence the law school questions the other day! Yis, I am v excited to read this one. :)

Yep. And I've been researching life/school/farming/etc in the 1930s and 1940s, as well as post-WWII society and clean-up in Europe, and GAH. Right now I have my Big Bang "soundtrack" playing, which consists of a LOT of big band and jazz music *g* Because yes, I am just that anal.

I think POV switches work best if you have a geographically spread story, or a story with a mystery component. If there are clues that we, the readers, can pick up on through the interchanging POVs, while the narrators obviously can't, it adds to the tension level and can make the story that much more compelling. I love multiple POVs in stories that eventually have all the characters cross paths (for example: the movies "Pulp Fiction" or "Go") - it's fascinating to see how all these differing stories build before converging - especially since the POV characters may not know each other and may not expect to meet at all. A story that covers the same event but from the POV of different factions or interest groups can also work really well. I do think POV switches work best in longer pieces, and I do think they should be done sparingly - one POV per "chapter" or "section", however much you decide constitutes a "chapter", or maybe one POV per "momentous event". Each paragraph would definitely make my head spin. I am also not a fan of sex scenes that switch POV - I start thinking along the lines of, "damn, how many cocks does this guy have, and is he fingering or being fingered, ~~and wait a minute, was that a tentacle?~~"
With all that said - do what you feel comfortable with. I love your writing, and I think you'll pull it off either way!

Dude. I got hung up on 'tentacle'. *blinks*

What you described above (multiple POVs) isn't likely; at most it would be Sam and Dean. But the more I read everyone's comments, and think about it, and what I want to write, the more likely it's looking to just be Sam's POV.

Thanks for the input -- and the confidence :)

Hey, don't be knocking the tentacle porn. Without it, thousands of Japanese animators would be out of work. *g*

*hugs*

Hah! I happen to LIKE tentacles. And tentacle porn! *g*

And god help me, now I'm picturing a supernatural...thing...where Sam and Dean (or J2) are sucked into an anime manga, with tentacles everywhere, just waiting to violate them.

I should probably go to bed, at this point.

Now that you mention it, I -have- seen a couple of instances of Sam and Dean tentacle porn. No J2, though. *pats tentacle beast*

Hmmm. Re question 3 - I think any story where the POV changes each paragraph is either a badly written story, or possibly meant to be in omniscient, which 99% of people don't pull off well and thus it comes across as constant POV-switching as if the writer doesn't know better. The only way to manage that is to change POV at section breaks.

Re questions 1 and 2 - I have no issue at all with stories from multiple POVs, 'cause I do it all the time and I love it in others' stories, but I suppose the key question for me as a writer is whether or not it's actually necessary. I try to decide which character's POV is most important - whose story am I telling? which events can be observed, and through whose eyes? - and stick with it. If I run into a scene that absolutely has to be from a different character's POV, then I take a look at whether I started with the correct POV in the first place, or if I need to balance the POVs between two characters. I guess the important thing is that POV switches for storytelling be a deliberate choice, not a default to fix a storytelling issue.

Hi, that was the longest comment EVER. I may have had too much caffeine today. *g*

Jesus, Des. That icon. *creeps away* Also, hi!! :)

I think...what I actually needed to do was to get something started which forced me to think about how the story needs to go. In my head, just randomly wandering over the idea, it looked like it could be told from Sam AND Dean, or just Sam. And now, having read through everyone's thoughts and comments and really *thinking* about it, I think it'll be just Sam's POV. He seems to be the primary voice in my head.

No such thing as too much caffeine ;) *snugs*

I don't necessarily think switching POV's in a long fic will make it 'better', but as long as the POV's switch in a logical place (i.e. not within a scene) I certainly don't think it's a bad thing, either.

Also, as Des says above, there really needs to be a reason for using more than one POV.

Edited 2008-04-20 02:21 (UTC)

The more I'm forced to think on it, reading through y'all's comments, the more I see that it's really a single-POV story. I could picture it in my head as either one or two, but when it comes down to it, really pondering it, it's one. :)

Thanks, honey *snugs*

(you feeling any better?)

It doesn't matter to me, as long as there's a method to the madness. I think probably the biggest problem with my earlier writing is an inconsistency with POV - now I'm aware of it. But I think that so long as it doesn't change in the middle of one section, without warning, it's fine.

Well, I know you're not going to be switching off every paragraph, so I vote for whichever's the easiest way to tell the story.

I just had this exact conversation today with someone about my own big bang story. How weird. I was nervous about switching pov's after relatively long sections and whether that would aggravate readers - the consensus seemed to be that if it made sense and wasn't confusing, fine. Looking forward to reading yours!
Lynsey

Everything depends on the story.

The only hard and fast rules I have as a reader are:

If there's a change of POV every paragraph, I bail.
If they write sloppy (head-hopping) third-person limited and think they're writing omniscient, I bail.

If the changes happen with scene changes or chapters, and it's done well then it's all cool.

My answer to one, two and three:

It entriely depends on the particular story.

How helpful am I, eh?!

No, but seriously. Are there any bits of the story later on that you're really going to have to tell from Dean's pov? Because if you are, then it's usually better to switch a few times earlier, to get the reader used to it so they're not jarred when the switch happens later. In a longer story it's generally a good idea to set thing up stylistically from the beginning.

Although, of course, that still all depends on the particular story. :-)

p.s. Did anyone ever say anything to you about the pov in Absinthe...? Because I was reading bits of it again while I was stuck in hospital and thinking that the dual pov really does work pretty well. Yet I notice a lot of people up there saying they'd bail on anything which switched pov between paragraph.

Edited 2008-04-20 09:42 (UTC)

I don't think you can quite make it that cut and dry-- I think some people would be able to pull it off beautifully, and some people would make it work, and some people would make it a huge mess.

I think you're an amazing writer and that you should do whatever works best for the story.

( which was completely unhelpful, right? ;p )

Yes, it really does depend on the story.

It can be really useful to tell the story from the point of view of the person who knows least about what is happening. It works if you don't want the reader to be secure in the knowledge of what is going on, and it also works if your story involves things that need explanation, because then the POV character either asks for an explanation or has to work things out painstakingly for himself.

I have occasionally managed to change a scene from one POV to another, if I thought the story needed it that way, but obviously it's a lot easier if you tell the scene from the right POV in the first place - so really, you need to recognise whether you are going to have scenes that crucially need to be from Dean's POV, in which case you need to prepare for those in advance by having non-crucial scenes from Dean's POV, or whether it can all work from Sam's POV.

Not that I think things through like this when I tell a story. Mostly, I see how it tells itself to me, and write that down. And, incidentally, I have switched POV in the middle of a scene when I had to - JC just met naked!Lance coming out of the shower, and POV switched from JC to Lance at that point. With a properly asterisked break, of course! So you don't have to do it regularly, chapter by chapter. It just... depends.

switching should be done in some consistent and clearly identifiable way, that is established early in the story.

(suddenly introducing a second POV 3/4 of the way through a story, however well signalled, is very tricky to pull off and should probably be avoided.)

it's going to be one of those nights

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